Another example of renewable energy 'over generation'

kinda wondering what is the impact on fossil fuel producers.

This should not be happening as there are many coal burning plants in the country

 

more transmission and storage is the answer but that won't be cheap. Such a waste... a lot like baseload plants spinning and doing nothing at night.

 

It is largey a grid capacity issue. Due to record high water levels in the PNW this year, along with the mandate to ( try) to protect fish, the Columbia and other hydro systems are at max capacity. Because seasonal demand is lower (little need for a/c in CA) there is not enough market for the power. We need to improve the grid to allow this power to get to other markets, especially carbon intensive markets.

Icarus

 

makes Better Place a better idea than we thought. imagine thousands of batteries using the excess power to charge only to be used during times when load requirements outstrip the grids output.

 

Bolsters my argument in favor of EVs. A couple of million EVs plugged absorbing peak production from RE, then selling portions of that back tot he grid at times of peak demand. It trully is a win/win solution to many problems.

Icarus

 

The way Edison (our local electric utility) fought tooth and nail against ANY payment for PV surpluss, it'll be a cold day before utility companys buy into any other incentives.

 

Coal plants are not shutting down due to low demand. They might throttle back, but there are practical limits to how far this can go. As your link discusses, there are thermal stresses involved and the process is not quick. It seems that "power down" in your OP link really means "throttle back", because they're certainly not shutting down nukes either.

It's also not true that traditional generators save money by powering down, as asserted in the OP article. This is like saying a restaurant can save money by shutting down the kitchen.

 

Sowly but surely we are going to see a sea change in our generating/ grid system(s). When utilities realize that they can get peak power cheaper than other source, the will be inclined to buy. Getting to that point is a process of PUCs and government incentives, as well as the basic economics which will bring on these changes.

The long and short of it, is that all energy costs are rising and going to continue to rise. People who get it wi ll benefit, and that goes for business too.

Icarus

 

Adding EVs to the grid helps with this issue - which is load-balancing. Power companies need a way to balance their power generation & consumption loads.

If all EVs are plugged into the grid when not in use - like at work, at the store, etc. - then when there is a surplus of power, the EVs can be charged, and when there is a pull for more power, the EVs can be tapped for it (think a very small amount, spread across thousands of EVs - the owner would not really notice the 1 or 2% charge difference) instantly, while the power generation "catches up".

With two-way EV charging stations, the benefit for the power company would outweigh the cost, and thus the EV owners would pay nearly nothing or nothing for the service.

 

While it's an opinion, I agree. The amount of (variable) EV storage compared to load variations with heat waves and weather events is too undependable to base local and nationwide grid designs. If hurricanes are in the Gulf of Mexico, no Florida EV owner will want anything other than a quickly fueled, fully charged vehicle while any hurricane is in the Gulf....which can be for weeks.

What is more likely is a dynamic rate structure capability that the utilities might provide, much like load removal credit for cutting off my hot water heater/pool pump/electric heat. If you have this service, it allows for discount rates at certain time and premium rates at other times, while guaranteeing a time balance average over days or weeks.

PS-- I could see EV makers revoking battery warranties if your EV were to be used as a power plant component.

 

I think of it as a transitional period also, in a sense. As more renewable power comes online, you'll be able to throttle back and eventually de-commission the dirty power plants. Since we don't have a great grid connectivity to move excess capacity to other neighbors, you end up with wind being turned down in the interim. Once you get more renewable, you totally cut out the dirty. This cycle will continue as renewable grows and becomes an increasing amount of our supply. It will probably take 3-5x capacity in renewable to cut out the capacity of a dirty producer, but it'll eventually happen. At the same time, upgrading and making the grid smarter is necessary as well.

 

I would argue that is is not fantastic that you could use EVs as a gird management tool for the benefit in both directions. As for Sages point about battery degradation due to charging/discharging abuse, on board battery management is easy, as evidenced by how long the Prius battery lasts. Second, if as a driver, you are able to get motive power at a cut rate, and indeed a substantial cut rate, and cut y our energy costs by say 1/3 at the cost of battery life being shortened some fraction, the equation might still pay off for the driver. Next, even if there is some conversion loses, and those are not insignificant, EVs are still head and shoulders more efficient than ICE vehicles, and if it is a choice beween charging efficiencies of EVs or taking Re production off line, forcing EVs (and other users)to buy power from non RE sources at a different time, it is a no brained. The simple fact is the wind doesn't always blow, the sun doesn't always shine, so putting that capacity the most effective us is not only desirable, but essential if we are to begin to use our resources more efficiently.
Mo
As for FlP's comment. Given a significant number of EVs over time their behavior becomes predictable to a very great extent. Just as grid managers now have to adjust to ever increasing wind and PV to manage with their grid, managing EVs will be little different. If you have X MWH of available battery capacity for X amount of known time, management of these into the grid becomes fairly easy and routine.

Just as the power company can't predict exactly when I am going to turn my coffee maker on, it can predict with almost absolute certainty, given se of conditions, how many coffee pots are going to be turned on, when. Plug in a couple of millions EVs and their behavior becomes at once predictable, manageable and advantageous.

Bottom line is that grid producers want to be able to sell power at the highest possible price, and buy it at the lowest possible price, and reduce their waste (and costs to an absolute minimum. EVs are just one more tool in the tool box that they would have available.



Icarus ,

 

The crux of the point being discussed is taking power out of an EV at the utilities schedule. In Florida, the average demand for gasoline is rock solid predictable.....until a hurricane suddenly develops close to land. Then there are very significant, widespread gas shortages as millions of drivers attempt to fill up at once. The same would be true for EVs.

The average would be predictable, it's just that the utilities basing EV supplied power to be available in every situation would be different than being available in most situations. Given that most utilities must be designed for extremely high availability, using EV power would likely only be a financial fallback, not a critical power supply fallback. Given that it is a financial fallback, the economics probably support varying the EV fueling demand (utilities making money) vs drawing from EVs (utilities paying money). Again, an opinion, nothing more.....and would not mind in the least being wrong on this.

 

I certainly can accept limitations during extraordinary events, but the reality is designing and using resources during, predictable, normal times is just smart. I am certainly not suggesting that EVs can provide a base load, (or wind or solar either) we will allays need base load generating facilities. What I am talking about it to us EVs to help cover peak load spikes, that tend, from what I know) to be fairly short lived. The flip side is to allow EVs to use excess base load capacity to absorb that capacity, and most especially RE sources that are by nature variable.

30 years ago, my folks a had Gizmo on their electric water heater. The utility could send a signal down the line to turn off the water for a period of ~20 minutes at a pop, thereby reducing their peak demand as needed. It was a prehistoric smart grid. There is no reason that EVs could do the same, but in this case, in both directions, all the while leaving the vehicle enough charge to active the prescribe distance that the owner dictates.

Icarus

 

Never mind a smart grid, just having a redundant continental grid would be a big step forward. And if we're really serious about renewables we will have to build a planet-wide grid, so we can always move power from where the Sun is shining or the wind is blowing to where the customers are. Today we can't even move power from one side of the US to the other. That's pathetic.

 

ICARUS- I just allowed my utility to install a control-device like that on my air conditioner. Now that summer is coming, we'll see how it works. Think we got $40 bucks credit or something.

 

Sounds like the "wind producers" business model requires speculating that the wind energy is actually needed, basically betting on high stream factor.