Thanks for all the information. I visited a Chevy dealership today and drove a Volt. Since "Hate the Volt?" seems the wrong thread for my report, I will start a new thread. (I did not hate it.) I will watch the above video later and look at the links. FWIW, three different salespeople insisted that the gas engine is NEVER connected to the wheels, and that the Volt has only two modes: Pure EV, and pure serial hybrid. But considering how misinformed many Prius salespeople were/are, especially in the early days, I put no stock in what they said. I just let it pass, since I could cite no sources to the contrary.
So, how's that different from Prius? It's MG2 is also the ultimate output path for power. The dodging & twisting of definitions is where the so-called hate comes from. Who cares what the label is? That's just marketing. . I wonder how all the "it's worth it" claims will change when the reverse happens, when Volt owners discover how much more EV the plug-in Prius offers over the regular model. .
Personally, I'm not interested in any PHEV now that I have a full-on EV and for road trips the Prius. But I'm thinking the Volt fans will continue to prefer the Volt over the Prius if the PiP has as little EV range as the 15 miles I read the last time I paid attention. Maybe that's changed by now. As far as I'm concerned, the real competition to the Volt is the Leaf, not the PiP. The Volt's selling point is that it's electric for the "average" commute, whereas the PiP's EV range is only about 1/3. But the Leaf, with double the Volt's EV range, is a nicer car. If you often drive over 100 miles, the Prius is better than the Volt, and if you only occasionally drive over 100, it's better to own a Leaf and rent a car for the occasional longer trip. Once the Tesla Model S comes out, that will be THE car to have if you need more space than the tiny Roadster. I could see trading to an S when I get too old and arthritic to get in and out of the Roadster. It was funny to see the rather overweight car salesmen struggling to get in and out of the Tesla.
The PIP is 15 while the Volt is 35. That is 15/35=43% with a battery 27% the size of Volt's battery. One car is electric for 15 and the other for 35, then gas. Average daily commute varies. I have a 12.2 mile round trip from work.
GM says the Volt goes 25-50 miles, Toyota says the Pip goes 9-15 miles. EPA says volt goes 35 miles, EPA not available for the PiP Volt uses about 10 kwh of electricity PiP will use about 3 kwh. PiP is not EV for 15 miles, it is blended electric and gas.
That is far better than a floor critter I ran into, showing off a Fusion Hybrid earlier at an event early this year. He claimed the Fusion recharges its battery only from regenerative braking, never from the engine. And also claimed the competing Volt always ran its engine to provide electricity. Because I didn't let it pass, we were unable to part on friendly terms.
With the out the door price of the Volt and gas prices in my area have fallen over 50 cents there will be a REVOLT. Lets see how many the sell now.
Volt uses its engine for warming in the winter, regardless of charge-level. And remember the footage of me driving the plug-in Prius at 70 mph getting over 200 MPG? I could point out my errand running in the suburbs never starting the engine too, but what's the point? Reality is that purity/complexity semantics fall on deaf ears; consumers simply don't care. Only enthusiasts give attention to detail like that. We've seen quite a few arguments of the past about a variety of different technologies play out that same way. Understanding audience is very important. The typical mainstream buyer has no idea how an automatic transmission works anyway, or even the differences between hybrids for that matter. (We still have plenty of examples of salespeople not knowing how hybrids work too.) So the best you'll likely be able to get them to consider is plugging in every night trades electricity for much higher MPG. .
Remember your test mule had a bigger battery pack (about 25% bigger wasn't it). I'd like to see a comparison video when you get your new car next year (not being snide, I'd really like to see the same run in the new production model, would be good for comparison).
Keep in mind that even though size (kWh capacity) changed, the kW output did not. The sub-pack approach did not either. .
The art of selling has everything to do with personal charisma, skill in manipulating people's emotions, and the gift of gab, and nothing to do with knowledge of the product being sold. A microscopic percentage of the buying public will walk away from a salesperson who cannot answer substantive questions, or who provides information that a simple bit of research would show to be mistaken. Badmouthing the competition works on thoughtless buyers, but not on people who have critical thinking skills, so may gain more sales than it loses. Not every item of wrong information a salesperson gives you is due to ignorance. Some may be intentional, with a view to manipulating you. Bottom line: the salesperson wants to get you to buy. Both honesty and dishonesty can be tactics, which work on different sorts of buyers. A really skilled and unscrupulous salesperson will read the customer and apply the strategy most suited to the individual.
PiP can cherry pick when (only "low" power and speed) to operate in EV mode. High power and speed are left for the HV mode. Therefore, Wh/mile can be much lower. The point is, unlike the Volt, the 15 EV miles does not have to be continuous.
Not a valid comparison. PiP is not going to be in EV mode at high speed above 62 mph nor fully accelerate with battery alone. Those would be handled by HV mode (not counting toward EV miles). So PiP's EV mode will rack up only the low power demand miles. That'll raise the total EV miles because kWh/mile will be much lower.
So the 83km vs. 23km=27.7% isn't fair because some of those 23km are actually powered by gasoline so the actual percentage should be lower than 27.7. Okay. I guess i was being too generous about the PiP's EV capacity.
No, that's not what I said. Say PiP will go 50km. 23km with the ICE off (EV) and 27km with ICE on (HV). EV/HV ratio is 46% / 54%. We'll have to assume that in the HV mode (selectable with EV toggle button?), the charge is sustained (no blending). Since high power and high speed miles are done in HV with the charge sustained, whatever left is the lower power easy miles for the EV. That's what I mean by PiP cherry picking the EV miles. With that flexibility, PiP will have lower Wh/mile compared to Volt or Leaf. For the case gas and battery power is blended, I don't think it should count toward EV mile. Volt's battery will need to handle all power and speed (even peak demands). So it won't get 83km when PiP gets 23km.
No, you can't do that. Otherwise the most efficient PHEV in EV mode is going to be one that the manufacturers cripple to run in pure EV only at 38mph. If you want to compare, you have to find typical use and measure it over that. If the car can't run purely in EV during typical use your choice is either to say "the car can't do it", or give its blended efficiency. The problem is really attempting to find a general comparison in the first place. I'd never buy a PIP-15 for my 41.4 mile round-trip commute just as somebody who commutes 5 miles each way isn't going to be interested in the AER of a Volt.
Except that the Volt really did get 83km electric range on the European test cycle versus 23km for the production 2012 Prius (unofficial target value as reported by Toyota) so you are saying that the 23km were actually "cherry picking" "easy miles" versus the Volt's real 83km. Oookay...
PiP in Europe has EV City mode. NEDC cycle isn't that much power intensive. I wouldn't be surprised if PiP completed it without ICE starting. EPA consists of 5 different tests. US PiP should be able to complete city cycles in pure EV mode. For the highway cycles, it may cherry pick the EV miles. We do know the production model displays EV / HV ratio. Toyota USA said PiP will have 15 EV miles. I believe it would be city miles or cherry picked highway miles. Volt will refuse to use ICE so it has to use the battery under all conditions resulting in 35 miles. We are looking at the result of synergy (or the lack of).
