Dave in OlyWA I am genuinely glad the Leaf is working for you. I/we all said the EV's are niche vehicles and if they fit your individual niche ... that is great. If my Pri was an EV ... it would not get near the use my Pri does.... especially a Volt. Here in the west, the distances are just too great. My G3 (2010) has 50k miles now. I have not had one regret, problem, or doubt about the vehicle. BTW ... you are paying too much for gasoline. I have not put $36,00 in the tank at one filling in 50k miles.
i do not in any way whatsoever recommend that a single car household buy a Leaf. but if you have a two car need...
Its still a niche, a 2-car family should run THEIR numbers/constraints and to see what works for them. A prius+Leaf is great if they meet your constraints. If a family needs a 4wd, hauling capabilities or others, then A PHEV/EREV + SUV/Truck or whatever may be a better choice. For others a Leaf+Prius V, for others a regular Prius+SuV..
Some Volt owner interviews here - scroll down, click 4th dot to watch Andy Oury's video. Techies will love it. 2012 Chevy Volt | Electric Car | Chevrolet
Volt's 60 MPGe may have been dropped from the window sticker but it is still used to determine the leader in fuel economy. Can't wait to see PiP and Prius c to show up on the list.
Volt sales, lets see what the competition puts out. That will determine their sales and future, but it looks like 40 thousand ish will be the ballpark price. Now things like quality, dependability, cost (own and maintain) resale and style will come into play. Let the games begin.
Volt's MPGe for EV mode is 93(2011) and 94 (2012). The 60 was an EPA blended rate using a particular mix of ICE + EV mode (which I think is presuming 66% EV and 33% ICE). But the MPGe for the blended depends very strongly on the assumed fraction trips exceed the EV range, so listing a single number is not really that meaningful. From what I read, the 33% was be estimated from the distribution of US driver trip lengths. PiP and Prius c will be rated in a similar manner but wil depend on what weighting the EPA applies to trips at or below the EPA determined pure EV range. If the EPA range is 12 miles, that will be something like 8% of trip length so maybe 100 * .08 + 50 * .92 = 54. If the EPA uses a weighting of 15% of trip length then it would be 57.5. (And if its better than 100MPGe in EV mode it would be higher). As far as I can fine the data used for "weighting" is itself not well defined/used, as the BTS data includes trips well beyond the Leaf or iMeV range (but for those vehicles it seems to be just ignored, but including the long trips, is the only way to get 33% ICE usage for the Volt weighting). The total usage (including many long trips) of 250+ Volt users at voltstats.net show 70% EV mode.
EPA supposed to use the Utility Factor from SAE J2841. My calculation did not agree using the UF graph from J2841 draft. I did not want to spend $65 to access the final version. Even using the alternative UF that considers multiple recharges, I was able to get 57 MPGe for the Volt. Prius c won't use any weighting since it has no plug. UF for 10 miles is 0.22 (22%). UF for 15 miles is 0.32 (32%). That's if PiP gets pure EV range. I am not sure how they would weight the PiP. However, we know PiP is expected to get 87 MPGe while blending battery power and gas. We don't know how long that range is going to be. I think it is going to be about 30 miles since PiP can get 15 City miles on pure EV but some thinks it'll be the blended range would be same as EV range. It'll all depends on how much battery energy is blended. Will the 87 MPGe be weighted with J2841 UF graph? If so, PiP will get a big boost with 53% @ 87 MPGe and 47% @ 49 MPG. See the sample blended PHEV label below. It's blended 65 MPGe is not as high as PiP 87 MPGe. Gasoline only MPG is 41. However the blended range is 50 miles.
My bad.. on just retyping the prius c. Yeah no plug, no PHEV eval. I don't think you can back into the EPA blended values with the just the standard.. they must be doing some other weighting (city/highway) or something else. My apologies for not having seen your past posts.. I was explaining the process to someone that's dug deeper than me! Yep two good questions.. will EPA use an AER + Hybrid, or a blended PHEV model. And if blended, the key question is what does the 87 MPGe mean and how many miles is it good for. If it is for 15miles then using your UF of 32% @ 87 + 68 @49 = 61, about the same as the Volt. If its for longer it will do better. This is of course an example, not a PIP. It is useful to note that they are using a 4Hour@240v battery in that example, so the 50mile blended range is probably using 2-3x larger battery. (Of course they should really kwh . not time@volts since that is not a meaningful measure, drawing 3.3kw @240v is not the same as say a tesla drawing 12kw. ) As you said we shall have to wait and see.
When Toyota released the 87mpge figure Priusteam said to compare to the Volt's 94mpge not the 60 mpge.
I've seen conflicting stories on how to interpret it. The Toyota PiP website 2012 Toyota Prius Plug-in Hybrid currently says (footnote 2) Maybe if ICE starts during EPA drive cycles it will cause it to be classified as blended hybrid and the MPGe is measured accordingly. 62MPh should allow the cycle without ICE, but maybe not the accelerations cause it to start.
Does it mean we should use the utility factor to get the composite (gas+electricity) MPGe figure for PiP?
PiP 87 MPGe does use both gas and electric. I believe the reason it is comparable to the Volt's 94 MPGe is that both cars would be in the charge depletion (CD) mode. Volt doesn't blend but PiP does. I estimate PiP's pure EV is about 118 MPGe. Combine it with some gas and it'll drag down to 87 MPGe. Again, without the blended range, we can't apply the UF to get the composite figure.
Do you not find it the least bit odd that Toyota would release the gas and blended value but not the pure electric? My theory is that they know sticker will say zero AER, so the only values on it will be the 87 mpge and the 49 mpg, which is why they released those numbers and the 15 miles is the blended range. They've seen the stickers you posted above and gave you the numbers you'll see on it (just my theory).
Prius is a hybrid. They've emphasized that repeatedly. There's no attempt to market it as an EV, unlike a certain other plug-in. What would the benefit be? It all boils down to kWh available anyway. The end result focuses on fuel refills, not the moments when the engine runs... just like Prius now. .
I agree, the idea of a super-hybrid is awesome and I am sure they will do well. Its just usbs seems to keep foisting numbers he is extrapolating from faulty assumptions about how the car will act as an EV. Everyone's entitled to an opinion, this should be cleared up when the sticker is released.
Faulty assumption? This is directly from Toyota pressroom: The 2012 Toyota Prius Plug-in Hybrid will allow true EV operation and performance for up to 15 miles at speeds up to 62 mph, along with quick home charging using a standard AC outlet and 15-amp dedicated circuit. Operating in EV mode, the Prius Plug-in Hybrid provides the quick, smooth quiet driving of a pure electric vehicle. The key word is "will allow". The condition for pure 15 EV miles under 62 MPH is not clear but definately not the blended range that you are suggesting.
Following up on the Prius C.. (I knew I saw it somewhere) From Toyota | Toyota Prius Family of Vehicles Receive GreenCarReports' '2012 Best Green Car to Buy' Award So don't expect it to be better than Volt's blended 60mpge.
