kansas's self destruct button a bill to outlaw sustainability

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by austingreen, Apr 11, 2013.

  1. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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  2. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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  3. Corwyn

    Corwyn Energy Curmudgeon

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    I am going to question their research though:

    The article says:
    "The state also has the country’s most ambitious renewable electricity standard, which requires utilities to provide 33 percent of their electricity from renewable sources by 2020."

    But according to US Energy Information Administration:
    "In 2011, half of Maine's net electricity generation came from renewable energy resources, with 25 percent from hydroelectricity, 21 percent from wood, and 4.5 percent from wind."
     
  4. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Large hydro should not count for a renewable standard. These things are fixed. Otherwise you need to give the props to idaho with 84%, mainly large hydro.

    California has the most aggressive regulation to force the utilities to provide renewables. I think they are correct that california has the most ambitious regulation. Other states, like texas are adding renewable's faster as measured by power, or iowa by percent of the grid. These are from incentives though instead of forced percentages. Still California is the number one builder of solar, and its wind is not nearly as good as these other states.

    Kansas has the number 2 wind resources in the country, right behind texas, but are not adding wind nearly as fast as iowa. Still there is financial incentive despite politicians that would rather
     
  5. css28

    css28 Senior Member

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    Wood? Really?
     
  6. Corwyn

    Corwyn Energy Curmudgeon

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    I suspect that is a euphemism for biomass. Which is mostly trash and byproducts of paper production.
     
  7. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Wood is one of those things, where people sometimes question whether it is green.
    Mass. Study: Wood Power Worse Polluter Than Coal | WBUR



    Now Maine may be quite a different case, with its low population, high energy costs, and pulp, paper, and wood industry there may enough saw dust and other waste to make it green. That isn't the case in most places.
    My local utility invested in wood as renewable.

    Wood-waste plant, meant to provide Austin with renewable... | www.statesman.com
    Expensive wood waste power plant to push up Austin electric bills | www.statesman.com

    Its crazy how here wind is so much less expensive than wood and nuclear.
     
  8. Corwyn

    Corwyn Energy Curmudgeon

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    I am not necessarily a fan of the biomass plants; however, the CO2 from one is not the same as CO2 from a coal plant. The carbon in that wood is (short of sequestering it forever (i.e. making it into coal)) going back into the atmosphere, and it just came from that atmosphere. In theory, we could manage forests such that we burned wood for power and grew them sustainably. Not, of course, at our current level of consumption.
     
  9. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Yep, that is just it. In Maine you have a small enough population and high enough forests to use wood in a sustainable fashion. It sounds like its unlikely to work that way in Massachusetts, and it definitely doesn't do much in Texas. Wind in texas is much cheaper. Wind, Geothermal, and solar are cheaper than wood in california. Most places it just doesn't make sense, but some push the idea. Biomass from food waste, instead of forests, and biogas do make sense, if only to clean up the pollution.
     
  10. Corwyn

    Corwyn Energy Curmudgeon

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    Well, Maine is currently cutting our forests faster than they are growing, so 1) we are not being sustainable even at the current level, and 2) burning primary wood would need to come at the expense of some other use (say, all those Christmas trees we ship out of state for people to put in their houses for 2 weeks). But given the byproducts we have, and the current level of burning, it is not too horrible. I do bet that Texas and Massachusetts have enough wood going into land fills to power some (small) number of plants. Definitely better than letting it anaerobically decompose and produce methane (into the atmosphere).

    The point in all this is that details are important, and no one thing is going to be a panacea.
     
  11. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    In Montana's Flathead Valley, just to the north of us (Columbia Falls) there is a mill, manufacturing all kinds of wood and paper products on site. Last time up there we took a tour. We found it was pretty impressive because of how the leftovers (sawdust, bark, etc) get used - even if it's to generate heat/steam for blasting off the bark. In short - from their own waste, they generate much of their own energy. Maybe we were too easily impressed but it seems pretty slick.
    I compare that to when I was a kid (1960's 70's) vacationing in Oregon. There were giant bark burners back then, as far as the eye could see - accompanied by a very brown air.
     
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  12. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    I agree with most of that.

    Now here we are in Texas with a wood burning power plant, that is only going to burn waste, but the grid operator says it can't run, its too expensive. Which makes me think this plant is not running on just worthless waste, it's expensive because other people want to buy that scrap wood and saw dust. At least I'm only getting charged for building the plant;), not the wood, and with it idle maintenance is low.