USA Ethanol Policy causing current gaso Price spike?

While ethanol use can offset the oil burned in cars, it comes at the expense of increased usage of natural gas and coal to produce the ethanol.

http://w.growthenergy.org/images/reports/Wang_ethanol_emissions.pdf

We need to "clean up" ethanol production before we move beyond widespread e10. Just my $.02

 

Yep,

I totally agree with this. The sooner the ethanol producers get their act together, the better for all of us. E15 really needs to be thoroughly tested before being allowed on the market. M/C, atv, boats, lawn tractors, etc, are not designed for the E15.

The E15 has ADM stinky smell written all over it.

DBCassidy

 

Most of these are not even designed for E10, or E5, . . . Add snowblowers to the list.

 

I agree. Burning more ethanol (which doesn't reduce emissions Corn Ethanol Will Not Cut Greenhouse Gas Emissions: Scientific American ) is worse because of the increased dirty fossil fuel use required to produce it.

Although it can produce a nice warm and fuzzy feeling amongst environmentalists that they are "doing something".

Not to mention it wreaks havoc on my old motorcycles.

 

Yep, I have the same problems with my old bikes using the ethanol. The use of Stabile or Seafoam helps reduce the varnish and corrosion in the carbs. If the bikes are stored for the winter months, I try to drain the tanks and fuel bowls before putting them away for their winter nap.

DBCassidy

 

Our Prius run just fine on E50 without throwing a code or North Alabama detected cold-start. If it were priced proportional to the energy content, I would have no problem with using it.

Bob Wilson

 

How many miles have you run E50?

Running without a code, and life of system materials with long term use are two different issues.

Ethanol can cause the same problems as biodiesel when used for the first time in an engine than has been in service. It can loosen up gunk in the tank that could then clog fuel lines and filters.

 

A full tank each, ~400-450 miles. Normally I get 600 miles. It was mostly a test to map the limits of the existing engine fuel trim.

Bob Wilson

 

Just curious, what was your mpg difference in comparison. Not throwing codes is not the same as being as efficient. Also agree with toyota, if they didn't design it for the alcohol, some parts may die faster. That is why toyota has put the no E15 labels on some prii (I think the plug in). Pollution control equipment may also not work as well if it was not designed for the blend. There will likely be no problems if you only do it for a couple of tankfulls a year, but do it all the time and you may do damage.

 

I wasn't really interested in the MPG as much as finding a limit that allows the engine to run without throwing a code. It was poor as in 35-40s MPG range whereas I normally see 50 MPG range. But to run a proper set of tests takes more work. (*)

We have a neighborhood station that sells:

• straight gas
• E10 gas
• E85 gas

Since I know how to get E50 in the tank, I have no problem with going back and running a set of MPG tests. Just I'm not sure there is much to learn. E85 is over-priced for the energy content as is E0. It looks like E10 is least expensive BTU/$ fuel and I'm into 'cheap gas.' I would not expect the engine thermodynamics to change since the engine self-tune is limited.

I was reasonably sure the short duration of my tests would not result in a materials issue.

Bob Wilson

* - My fuel test protocol is to carry a gallon of the next test fuel and run the tank dry. Then I drive to the station to fill with at least half tank of the test gas, often easier just to fill it. Then at the next opportunity, I head to my test roads and perform the MPG tests. Finally, I load the one gallon tank with the next test mix while waiting for the tank to run dry.

When I mention running the tank dry, there are usually 2-3 posts where people panic, set their hair on fire, and jump off of buildings.

 

Nice. Agree there is not much to learn.

Here in central texas you can't buy E0, I think its available in west texas, but more expensive than E10 in terms of energy content. With the mandate and the blend wall means they don't want to sell E0.

In the future though if they get cellulistic ethanol prices down, there may be economic incentive to go to richer blends. Already methanol is much cheaper than gasoline, but california closed their methanol blend pumps. This means the open fuel mandate should be good for fuel choice in this country. Higher oil prices right now would likely give us less expensive per energy value M25 right now if we had pumps and cars that were made to burn it.
What we have learned with brazil is that cars designed to burn it can be more efficient than gasoline cars, but if the car is normally aspirated a car designed for gasoline, it will not have the higher compression needed to most efficiently burn alcohol blends. A di turbo charged engine with agressive EGR can be efficient with flex fuels, although likely this could be improved with an eco button that cuts off the very low efficiency high power range of such an engine.

Bottom line is that E15 would probably run fine in the prius, but may cause damage to older vehicles and small engined motorcycles and tools. Its a bad idea with no good environmental benefits. We can though build cars with fuel systems to shift to alcohol or alcohol blended with gasoline with out adding much cost. This may help us substitute away from oil as it becomes even more environmentally damaging and expensive. I have no problem with pushing the blend wall, but this mandate in quantity for 2014 seems like a really bad idea.

 

One of the great fears of the auto manufacturers is that the next guy at the blender pump forgets to change the ratio back down to e10 or only fuels a few gallons on an empty tank and damages the car.

Because of these likely expensive accidents and the worse fuel economy the API and AAA has joined the manufacturers against this. The ghg and water pollution along with higher feed and food prices have added restaurant associations, farm groups, and environmentalists against arbitrarily raising the value to E15.

 

A mechanical selector? NO!!! Have the pump default to E10 and the person pumping has to override to whatever E?? they want. If it were my design, two, variable speed pumps with flow sensors and mux to make the mix.

You can engineer an idiot-resistant but not an idiot-proof system. Somehow evolution always makes a better idiot. For example, there is no helping those who have in the past pumped diesel into their gasoline cars.

Bob Wilson

 

I think the AAA would remove their objections if it was hard to get anything over E10. The API would still be mad if stations needed to install expensive equipment to comply with the E15 mandate, but customers were all buying E10. I think the ethanol lobby knows it can lose the mandate completely if it continues to be such a pig and demand the 2014 and later years mandate amounts.

I was at a barbecue last month and heard the story of a poor girl that loaned a guy her diesel car, and he put gas into the fuel tank thinking he was being nice and returning the borrowed car full.

 

Ouch!!!



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Uncertainty for corn after US biofuel shift - FTENG - euro2day.gr

 

Motorcyclists, and other low volume purchasers, are being warned away from blender pumps. Not because the pump could be left on a high ethanol setting, but do to the fact that the fuel in the pump's line after the blending can be a high percentage of their fill. IIRC, it be as high as 2 gallons.

 

Frankly, ethanol should be abolished.

1. You get less power from the gas because of it. Ergo, you are burning more gas and getting worse MPG with ethanol-laced fuel.

2. Ethanol fuels are not compatible with a lot of things that use gas and even a simple 5% increase is problematic on a nationwide basis.

3. To make ethanol you commit valuable crop land to grow product for GAS instead of FOOD for people. Is not famine a problem in much of the world right now? Is this a wise use of cropland?

 

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Ethanol plant using corn waste moves forward | Minnesota Public Radio News

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