Why "plug in" versus "hybrid?"

OK. He is in the FL Power and Light schedule so his rate is between 9 to 11 cents/kWh.

 

PS Watch out for the taxes, those are not included in any rate and really affect the final bill.

 

that is the final bill, $80. for 876 kwh. sounds like .09 compared to my .17.

 

...alrighty then his place is a bit cheaper than average and Boston is a little above average cost...

 

^this is not quite right. Power to (most) N. American homes comes of the transformer as 240 SPLIT PHASE. What happens is, they take the higher voltge pole line, of say 14.4kv, hand a transformer on the pole. (or in the underground vault) this transformer steps the voltage down to line voltge. Using a center tap neutral, two feeds come off the transformer, each 120 vac, 180 degrees out of phase with one another. So you are right, there is two "independent" 120 vac lines, but if you combine the two with a common neutral you get...240 single, split phase.

You can't simply tap another , and another, and another 120 vac off the same transformer and get, say 330 or 440. You would need a higher root voltage transformer. 3 phase wiring requires 3 separate feed lines from the utility, each 120 degrees out of phase with one another.m if yu look up at your utility pole, a simple 240 split phase only requires a single HV conductor on the poles, (plus a grounded neutral) a 3'phase system has three conductors plus the neutral. You can pull split phase simply off one of those conductors, so you may have 3 phase available (or not) but are using single phase. 3 phase is much more expensive to install on the poles, and is not available in most location. It is very useful however in industrial applications for motor loads, s the motors run much more efficiently on three phase power.

But back to the original statement. It really doesn't matter wht the root voltage is for charging an EV, as power is the product of Volts X Amps! If it takes 6 kws to charge a leaf or. Volt for example, you can get there with 50 amps of 120 vc, or 25 amps of 240 vac

Icarus

 

I do not have a plug-in so this is something I learned from John1701a.

• If by happy accident, your daily driving can be EV supported say close to work and/or plug-in at work, you can drive without burning any gas.
• If your daily trip is longer than the ~11 mile range of the traction battery, you can warm-up the engine at "idle" fuel consumption while driving the first 1-2 miles. Then you can 'bank' the rest of the traction battery energy and be driving a Prius at +60 MPH.
  • For planning purposes, use 30 MPG for the first 1-2 miles, and 50-60 MPG depending upon the mix of City and Highway driving.

You might consider searching first and then posting your question in the Plug-In forum.

GOOD LUCK!
Bob Wilson

 

just so that you don't make another common mistake ... the Plug In Prius is a Plug In Hybrid (PHEV). The Tesla is a Plug In Battery Electric Vehicle (BEV), and the Volt is a Extended Range Electric Vehicle (EREV). The three different approaches have significant differences resulting in drastically different gasoline consumptions depending on your driving profile.

 

The short answer is the current PiP does not seem give any MPG advantage (over HEV hybrid Prius Gen3) when run in hybrid gaso mode without charging up. In other words, the regular Prius battery size is already pretty much optimized to maximize MPG, without much further MPG gain if the battery is bigger (keeping in mind that adds weight).

I don't own a PiP either but I believe a number of owners do not charge it up, just use it as a hybrid. For one reason, in CA, for example, you get HOV access with the PiP.

 

lol. Resistance heating is extremely efficient. Arc welding, if you are doing work (want it welded) is a good dual use, as the heat is free. Arc welding is extremely inefficient if you don't want to weld anything.

a heat pump is not more efficient than resistance heating, it is doing less work. Something gets colder so the air inside the house can get warmer (or when used as ac something gets warmer so the air inside the house can get colder). This requires less electricity than resistance heating because you are doing less work with the energy.

Burning natural is more efficient than electric resistance heating, if the electricity comes from natural gas or coal, simply because of the in efficiency of the power plant and transmission. For dollar efficiency, solar panels to electric resistance will be cheaper than other schemes for solar heating. Green building to require less heating is ofcourse the cheapest if it is new construction.

Which brings us back to arc welding versus say an electrical heat pump in a bev like the leaf. The ice is more efficient for heating, because it is waste heat generated by ice. Its free heat once the ice warms up. Other things in a bev will be more efficient, but not heating it.

 

lol. Resistance heating is extremely efficient. Arc welding, if you are doing work (want it welded) is a good dual use, as the heat is free. Arc welding is extremely inefficient if you don't want to weld anything.

a heat pump is not more efficient than resistance heating, it is doing less work. Something gets colder so the air inside the house can get warmer (or when used as ac something gets warmer so the air inside the house can get colder). This requires less electricity than resistance heating because you are doing less work with the energy.

Burning natural is more efficient than electric resistance heating, if the electricity comes from natural gas or coal, simply because of the in efficiency of the power plant and transmission. For dollar efficiency, solar panels to electric resistance will be cheaper than other schemes for solar heating. Green building to require less heating is ofcourse the cheapest if it is new construction.

Which brings us back to arc welding versus say an electrical heat pump in a bev like the leaf. The ice is more efficient for heating, because it is waste heat generated by ice. Its free heat once the ice warms up. Other things in a bev will be more efficient, but not heating it.

 

I would think the number one reason is money: it'll cost you less to fuel the car, gas and electricity, in virtually all scenarios, month to month.

I agree the electrical supply may not be all the green, but...

 

I presume many here are familiar with it, but there is an entire report published just last year that deals with this exact issue. It even breaks it down on a state-by-state basis how many MPG a gas car has to get to emit less than a BEV or PHEV. http://www.ucsusa.org/assets/documents/clean_vehicles/electric-car-global-warming-emissions-report.pdf

 

The problem here is they use old figures. For example in ercot, they state a renewable goal of 5.5GW by 2020, ercot now has 9.6 GW of wind alone, and new goals set. Coal is at 45% in that report for the country, it was down to 37% last year, it may go up to around 40% this year, but long term it should get much lower than last years 37%. These things don't really affect california, but greatly reduces electricity impact for charging cars in states like texas.

Most plug-in drivers care more about reduced oil consumption than ghg pollution. In fact in polls ghg (CO2) emissions were not high on the list of priorities. In california 39% of plug-in owners have installed solar, so that they have less reliance not only on OPEC and big oil companies, but also less reliance on their utilities that are also unpopular (I hated PG&E when I lived there).

 

Sure, I agree that most people's first thought is to just use less gas.

I don't think you could ever get a report like the one above that was exhaustive enough to cover the entire country, yet get everyone to agree on every number, or for the numbers to be totally relevant for any period of time. It merely provides a baseline for people to go on - as there are obviously states whose electrical grids are generally much cleaner than others.

 

Sure it does. Once the electricity is delivered, resistance heat is near 100% efficient. Doesn't get much better than that! Sure heat pumps look like they are getting 300-400% efficient, but that is only because they are getting heat from somewhere else (i.e. you aren't accounting for ALL the energy in). The advantage of heat pumps is that likely don't have to PAY for that heat.

 

Actually Watt-hours. That is Watts * Hours, not Watts / Hours.

 

^True dat! Question is, when is a slash NOT an indication of a arithmetic process? Which is the proper symbol, forward or back slash to connote division?

We often use AC to define Alternting current, and use A\C to define air conditioning, even when it is not air DIVIDED by conditioning.

In any case WH would be the proper example of Watts*hour.

Icarus

 

Here in Ohio, PIP does not make sense. 100% of our power comes from older coal fired power plants. I read an article in the local paper that more pollution is generated here recharging the PIP battery than the emissions saved vs a standard Prius.

Sadly, I'm generating more pollution just reading this forum. I'll just go back to my cave now and stare at the mammoths drawn on the walls. That way my only emissions will be methane, which sadly is also a greenhouse gas.