Hurricane Irma 2017

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by tochatihu, Sep 7, 2017.

  1. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    28,174
    15,943
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    Not Miami, Tallahassee has the problem.

    Bob Wilson
     
  2. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    9,466
    3,656
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    My first thought is that if eye circulation is entirely over land (the central path), it dissipates more rapidly. Most wind energy deposits well south of Okeechobee.

    For west path, energy deposits on a longer stripe up west coast. Having eye partially offshore is great for longevity. Has actually been important for Irma persistence so far.

    That in addition to lower winds for Homeland, Miami, Palm Beach.

    Don't think storm surge differs as much between those paths. Wider forces, not the eye, affect movement of liquid water.
     
    bwilson4web likes this.
  3. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    9,466
    3,656
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    2010 census data

    Florida_population density 2010.png
     
  4. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    111,637
    50,841
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    another part of the country where companies have relocated to, builders have been building as fast as possible, thousands have been retiring to, and immigrants have flocked to. and over time, hurricane forecasts flop and they all say, see? meteorologists have no idea what they are talking about.
     
  5. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    9,466
    3,656
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    Not happy calling 'flop', nor would be the folks who dedicate their lives to making forecasts.

    A hundred miles is a lot of error when energy gets concentrated in hurricane centers typically half that size. It is not (realistically) a lot when essential atmospheric data is simply unavailable at scales finer than 100 miles.

    Hurricane hunters do amazing stuff with an active fleet of 3 aircraft, focused on storms and their immediate environment. With a 20-times larger fleet they could fly the mesoscale. Providing forecasts that people say they want but won't pay for.

    I have looked at flight tracks of Gulfstream NOAA49 for just the last week. Amazing stuff. Wish they could tout their work more, but they are too busy doing it.
     
  6. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    28,174
    15,943
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    Cuba has been hit too although it might be hard to hear.

    Bob Wilson
     
  7. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    9,466
    3,656
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    I really don't know how much storm surge forecasts changed with wind-track change. NOAA just posts current one (now through advisory 43). Did not find an archive. Maybe that makes sense because people could get misled by basing decisions on old graphics.

    People do get misled...

    Storm surge is a really challenging thing. Very dynamic; I guess more so than typical rain flooding. Nailing up plywood makes no difference (cf. winds). Supposed to be only very near coastal, but dang, Florida is flat.
     
  8. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    9,466
    3,656
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    One 'West Side Story' pertains to Okechobee. It drains (normally not much at all) through 4 canals to west. Miami Canal drains to...well you can guess.

    Oke will get rain, for sure, and has been recently emptied a bit to make room. But wind over water can create a seiche (sciency word) and slosh over top and into those western canals. This would add to Waterworld effects in Miami (etc.) It is also not what you would call clean water.

    If the system stays online you can see action here:

    USGS Current Conditions for USGS 02286400 MIAMI CANAL AT S-354 AND S-3 AT LAKE HARBOR, FLA

    I guarantee that most hurricane watchers will not be looking at the back door.
     
  9. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    9,466
    3,656
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
  10. fotomoto

    fotomoto Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2009
    5,626
    3,802
    0
    Location:
    So. Texas
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    While doing this over the last couple of days, they've also been doing TV live shots and talking the media and public through what they do. Impressive and probably hoping the, ahem, current administration is also watching and may rethink their proposal to cut their funding to help fund the wall.
     
    VFerdman likes this.
  11. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    28,174
    15,943
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    I'm wondering if part of the lightning detection system is down:
    [​IMG]

    Bob Wilson
     
  12. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    9,466
    3,656
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
  13. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    9,466
    3,656
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    Weather Channel is cycling through old footage including about the 24 Miami construction cranes. Since there was not time to lower them, least somebody could have done would be to put videocameras on the jibs.

    Wheeeee!
     
    Raytheeagle likes this.
  14. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    9,466
    3,656
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
  15. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    28,174
    15,943
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    When the 1989 tornado ran along Airport Road in Huntsville, a bunch of 'good ole' boys' headed over in their jacked up, 4-wheelers ... which instantly had four flat tires. A tornado disassembles buildings by pulling out the boards with the nails and then beaks the boards into smaller pieces that are scattered about EVERYWHERE.

    Bob Wilson
     
  16. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    9,466
    3,656
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    Bread falls jam side down. Boards fall nail side up. Laws of nature non-negotiable.
     
  17. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    9,466
    3,656
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    Tampa Bay storm surge anticipated from 5 to 8 feet. Previous hurricanes (1848, 1921, 1946) in that area caused equal or greater storm surge. What differs is currently much higher density of construction.

    1921 event is interesting to read about because Florida had a construction boom at the time (following railroads!) and there were efforts to, oh, let us say 'under-report' such unfortunate occurrences.
     
  18. Sam Spade

    Sam Spade Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2016
    2,036
    1,023
    0
    Location:
    USA
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius c
    Model:
    Four
    I don't think so.
    In the heart of the storm there likely is SO much rain in the air that any electrical buildup would just jump from one raindrop to another.
     
  19. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    28,174
    15,943
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    Living in Huntsville AL, north central, it looks almost boring:
    [​IMG]
    The prevailing rain/wind from Irma has to cross S. Carolina, western N. Carolina, and eastern Tennessee ... the southern end of the Appalachian mountains. The elevation will squeeze most of the water leaving us with pretty much just wind and low rates of rain. If it had come in around New Orleans, Huntsville would have been more at risk. Now, not so much.

    The sea surface temperatures show the western Gulf was cooled by Harvey. It may take a day or two to see the Irma cooling around Florida. As for more warm water, La Nina has pretty well cooled the eastern Pacific:
    [​IMG]
    Southern Mexico and Central America are still at risk for more storms. Then there was that 8.1 magnitude earthquake.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #39 bwilson4web, Sep 11, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2017
  20. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    111,637
    50,841
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    i wouldn't call it a flop, but i would say they dodged a bullet. if anyone is mad that they had to leave, and their home is still intact, they are just not dealing with reality.
    however, my own brother is calling bs on the forecasters and vows to stay next time.:rolleyes: