HV battery clarification on terminology.

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Accessories and Modifications' started by Raphael Muscarelle, Jul 7, 2019.

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  1. Raphael Muscarelle

    Raphael Muscarelle Active Member

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    I have watched videos and read many things. About what people are saying about the NIMH batteries and how to refurbish them. I find things very confusing that are out there.
    Now I reach back into my electrical classes in Lincoln tech I see the problem people are having.
    The word balance is not appropriate word to describe what's going on. I think if balancing would be replaced with Saturating it would make more sense.

    Because saturation of the electrons is really the goal of the charge Faze of the operation.
    The goal is to fill the plate up untill the electron has no place to go but through the crystal to get to the plate. This is what disrupts the crystal. Then discharging the cell has to be empty of electrons in order to then pull the electron through the crystal again causing disruption in it.

    The whole thing is becouse the electron will naturally take the easiest path in and out of the plate.

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    #1 Raphael Muscarelle, Jul 7, 2019
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  2. Raphael Muscarelle

    Raphael Muscarelle Active Member

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    Thinking this way things happening in the pack as a whole makes more sense.
    If electron activity is what disrupts and prevents crystals from forming this here makes more sense.
    The outer cells are obviously the first ones connected to the wires out and in. Thus they will have more electrons available to discharge and recharge quicker then the inner ones.

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    #2 Raphael Muscarelle, Jul 7, 2019
  3. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    i have always wondered about terminology myself. it can be confusing, and cause people to go down the wrong avenue
     
    #3 bisco, Jul 7, 2019
  4. Raphael Muscarelle

    Raphael Muscarelle Active Member

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    There are several other things people are looking at and comming to improper conclusions about. Like when charging with a charger that keeps track of how many total amps.
    This number is not how many amps the battery has.
    This is how many amps total over time made available to the battery. "Applied to the cells."
    Now how many amps that was absorbed by the plates in the cell is totally another story

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    #4 Raphael Muscarelle, Jul 7, 2019
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  5. Raphael Muscarelle

    Raphael Muscarelle Active Member

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    I started with balance because what's there to Balance this is not a lipo or another cell like that. This cell depends on the surface of the plates to be clean to be for Optimal condition.

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    #5 Raphael Muscarelle, Jul 7, 2019
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  6. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    unquestionably
     
    #6 bisco, Jul 7, 2019
  7. Grit

    Grit Senior Member

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    Depends on your audience.

    Youre coming from an electrical background so that term best describes it for. If you would to tell the average American about saturation, a lot of us will be lost and/or probably tune out, that's something you don't want to do with prospective customers. I work in the IT field, back then when a client's computer was low on memory, I would say for fun "Your computer currently has dual online memory modules which is high on latency, about 60 milliseconds. What you need synchronized dynamic random access memory modules with 8 milliseconds of latency, which will free up the central processing unit's 2 megabyte cache read ahead memory buffer." The simple explanation was, computer memory is out dated ^ need to upgrade to new memory to keep computer stable. I loved the reactions from the former explanation.
     
    #7 Grit, Jul 7, 2019
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  8. Raphael Muscarelle

    Raphael Muscarelle Active Member

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    U don't get what saturation means?

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    #8 Raphael Muscarelle, Jul 7, 2019
  9. Raphael Muscarelle

    Raphael Muscarelle Active Member

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    And sure putting in memory that reacts faster would make a difference.

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    #9 Raphael Muscarelle, Jul 7, 2019
  10. Raphael Muscarelle

    Raphael Muscarelle Active Member

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    Refurbished should be enough of a word to use. Since there is no balancing these cells. They are proper voltage or not proper aka shorted or flipped voltage also not working

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    #10 Raphael Muscarelle, Jul 7, 2019
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  11. Raphael Muscarelle

    Raphael Muscarelle Active Member

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    So are we confused yet or should I start explaining in what order should cells be put into the pack and why.

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    #11 Raphael Muscarelle, Jul 7, 2019
  12. TMR-JWAP

    TMR-JWAP Senior Member

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    Since you're apparently in the mood to save the world, fill us in.....

    Also, IMHO, you misunderstand what "balancing" is being discussed. I don't think anyone here is talking about balancing the 6 internal 1.2v cells contained in each module. Our discussions about "balancing" refers to getting the individual capacities of all 28 modules as close to each other as possible. The more "balanced" the capacities are, the better the overall battery.
     
    #12 TMR-JWAP, Jul 7, 2019
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  13. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    i'm all eyes...
     
    #13 bisco, Jul 7, 2019
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  14. TMR-JWAP

    TMR-JWAP Senior Member

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    Another item you may be misunderstanding.
    Most of the chargers used here track both values. And those values are measured in mAh. The chargers can be set for specific amperage rates for charging and discharging. They can be set for voltage limits, time limits, mAh limits and delta peak values to determine length of charge or discharge. Personally, I set mine for a max charge of 8200mAh or until it hits the delta peak auto detection. I use 8200 under the assumption of 85% charging efficiency 8200 charged may = 6500 absorbed. Sometime better, sometimes worse and it goes to heat generation instead. During the discharge cycle, the "charger" also tracks exactly how many mAh is drawn from the module into the heat sink. So.....most of those values you see in the threads here are probably fairly accurate.
     
    #14 TMR-JWAP, Jul 7, 2019
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  15. TMR-JWAP

    TMR-JWAP Senior Member

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    I'm not certain I understand what you're saying here.
    If a battery has a 1 amp discharge, it has 1 amp flowing through the circuit at every point. Beginning, middle and end and every infinite point in between. There is no more or less electrons flowing.

    That would be like taking a 100 ft garden hose and saying there's more water flowing in the first 5 feet and last 5 feet than there is flowing in the center 5 feet.
     
    #15 TMR-JWAP, Jul 7, 2019
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  16. Raphael Muscarelle

    Raphael Muscarelle Active Member

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    Goes on principal of electrons will do easiest thing possible. So charging first plate is easier then going through resistance to next plate

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    #16 Raphael Muscarelle, Jul 7, 2019
  17. Raphael Muscarelle

    Raphael Muscarelle Active Member

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    Delta peak yeah that's when less electrons are charge the plate EASILY so in these cells the voltage goes down 0.01 volt due to less electron chargeing activity. Now this is where it is needed to keep pushing volts to force the electron to overcome the crystals resistsnce.

    Since there is more resistance in the crystal then expected from the charger the charger will think there is no more plate that can accept charge and declare it charged and stop trying to push with the volts. But that's really when the disruption of the crystals happen.

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    #17 Raphael Muscarelle, Jul 7, 2019
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  18. Raphael Muscarelle

    Raphael Muscarelle Active Member

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    I actually don't have background in electrical. I rebuilt automatic transmissions.

    The reason why I know about this is from a class I had more then 25 years ago that actually explained what's going on and did not use ambiguous words that don't really describe what's going on.

    The teacher was actually a rebuilt batteries for a living.

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    #18 Raphael Muscarelle, Jul 7, 2019
  19. Raphael Muscarelle

    Raphael Muscarelle Active Member

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    Discharging as far as I have seen would be the only way to get a good idea if how much the cell absorbed from charge.

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    #19 Raphael Muscarelle, Jul 7, 2019
  20. Grit

    Grit Senior Member

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    I'll see you guys later.
     
    #20 Grit, Jul 7, 2019
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