Fillers in the Gasoline

Clearly this is a counter-conspiracy theory that the corn lobby paid you and your colleagues big money to propagate because there's about to be a huge announcement about damage from ethanol in gas to finally being well documented enough that Gen3 Prius owners, as well as owners of many other makes and models will be able to file endless class action lawsuits against the corn lobby who's been providing falsified data for decades. Stay tuned to: http://www.pure-gas.org if you want to find out the truth!

 

I haven't noticed anything in my bolt

 

5G runs fine... but exclusively buy from one Top Tier station, and use midgrade vs. bathwater.

 

That's OK.
As we see here in PC, lackeys (or useful idiots) for the API have been banging on that drum since those HORRIBLE days during the Carter years when they started putting hooch in gasoline.

2% water in gas?
Really???
I would think that PRIUS people above all others would be the FIRST to repudiate that idiotic notion!
As in.....WHAT causes the Prius Death Rattle?!?!
SO....
Water and Gas do not get along well - and water is heavier so it will settle into the bottom of the tank when the car is parked.
The API lobby is always yammering on about how E10 absorbs water.
The API tells them to say "hydroscopic" a lot so people will think that they know what they are talking about - but HOW MUCH WATER will E-10 absorb before it becomes saturated - AND....what happens after THAT?
eh?
(I'm betting that this amount is a LOT less than 2%!!)
Not all cars have comically small gas tanks - but SOME do....so we will use a 15 gallon "fill-up" as an average.
2% water in a 15 gallon fill-up is not "a few ounces" - it's 0.3 fluid GALLONS......38 OUNCES! 4.75 CUPS!
These are, of course, 'freedom units' but even if you throw down the 'metric' card 2% or even 1% is a NON TRIVIAL amount of water.
Think that's going to get "absorbed" by the ethanol?
Think it's going to be mixed in with the gas, or swirl around like some "lava lamp?"

I don't!
I think it's going to hang out in the bottom of the tank......where the FUEL PUMP is.
That means that it is possible that you will get a bunch of MOSTLY WATER injected into your cylinder bores at some point.
I doubt the car would even START with that much water in the gas and it it DID start I doubt you'd be knocking down 30+ MPG!!!

One of the reasons that I really do not mind using Walmart gas is that the media (which is to say leftists) HATES Walmart - and we ALL know that they hate "Big Oil!"
If their fuel was CONTAMINATED by water, just how long do you think it would stay quiet?

 

On the mad overnight drive in my parents' car to drop me off for new student week at college, we stopped to fill up at some nondescript station that we found open at that hour in Nowheresville, Wisconsin. The car ran ok for several miles afterward. It was then very rough, and we weren't at all sure we would get to where we were going, or even to the next open station.

We did manage to rattle in to another open station, far enough down the road that the tank could take enough more gas to achieve a better ratio in there, and the car ran ok after that, apparently no lasting damage done. Of course we never determined an actual percentage of the contaminant, or what the contaminant was, though water seemed most likely.

I know it's chic to complain about regulation, but I've noticed in my later life I've been able to fill up anywhere from big-name chain stations to tiny Nowheresville ones and have never had that happen again, and to me that's a modern-life improvement...

 

I would submit that in these salad days of hyper-communications that it's a lot tougher for sketch gas regardless (or irregardless - whichever is the real word) of government regulation/intervention - although the threat of either is enough to keep vendors honest.

There are petrol stations a plenty and competition is ever the more efficient 'regulator.'

 

I hate Wally's just because the worst of the human race tends to manifest their upbringings there. Still shop there tho

But if a better deal's at TGT, buh-bye

Go to the petrol station I do, because 1) it's a Local institution I don't want to go away... and whilst they aren't even in the same universe as Publix-level customer service and attention to detail, for example... 2) the gas has never not been good.

Not sure who's in charge out here on the space station to see that thru for 76... but it's been good as long as lived here, and the slight difference at Wally's isn't enough to allay fears of their overworked and underpaid staff just punching a clock and doing the bare minimum, when it comes to fuel quality -- they certainly aren't afraid to show their indifference with everything else about the store

 

I pump my own fuel, and use NFC payment at the pump, so I'm not there to socialize- but I've found that the attendant at MY local Wally is quite friendly.
Several of the kids in my church work there and they all make about $18 an hour if they're being honest.
The Local HD pays $20.....

TIFWIW.

 

There were overseas emulsified fuel companies claiming an improvement in emissions and a reduction in diesel use, but you had to burn through a tank of fuel in around a month. Even some testing doing that with gasoline which is more sketchy.

and of course hydrous ethanol fuels exist in Brazil .

to do the above here would require modifications to our laws and standards.

 

They also have a college tuition assist program for their employees to take advantage of.....

"Walmart’s Live Better U (LBU) program is designed to help employees advance their education and career opportunities while working at Walmart or Sam’s Club Scholarships360+1. The program covers 100% of tuition and textbook costs for eligible associates, eliminating financial barriers and allowing employees to pursue high school diplomas, undergraduate degrees, or professional certificates Scholarships360+2. Unlike traditional tuition reimbursement programs, Walmart pays the costs upfront directly to partner schools, so employees do not need to pay first and wait for reimbursement"

 

Water injection is an old concept for improving performance, efficiency, and emissions. Emulsifying it in the fuel gets around installing extra equipment.

A northern European country used to have hydrous ethanol 15%. Removing the last bit of water, and keeping it out, of ethanol isn't easy, so hydrous is lower cost. The water in there also protects aluminum parts from the ethanol.

 

In general if you're doing gas additives you want to run it through ASAP. Unless of course its a fuel stabilizer for storage, but storing on a near empty tank with a plan to put 5-gallons in before starting it after storage is way better than fuel stabilizer.

 

I used to work for $9 an hour Y2Ks, and that covered rent, food, sundry expenses (like internet and phone) + owning a car. Today? There's a reason I charge what I do for my work -- it barely covers living costs + a tiny bit of margin if anything ugly happens.

Wherever you live now, I'll bet those kids getting $18/hr, pay less for all four, than we do here. So, underpaid? Yep

 

I'm not sure if this thread is supposed to be satirical or not, but I am getting a good laugh.
Methylated Spirits, or denatured alcohol as it's known in the USA, was legendary for improving petrol octane and getting rid of water out of a tank of fuel, every bar stool mechanic would bet their life on how well it worked ....... yet the same bar stool experts will tell you that ethanol will destroy your engine, eat all the alloy and cancel any future birthdays.

This was one of my favourite pub tricks, get an audience around the local font of all knowledge and steer them onto the path of the wonders of adding "Metho" to the fuel tank ... till they had all the nodding heads going, much like you see behind a politician making a speak at their podium or a press conference ......
Once I had that generally accepted through the gathered crowd, I'd mention E10 and ethanol in the petrol, like dropping a burning log into a tank of alcohol ..... red faces and spitting while they spoke, the full works regarding how bad it was for any engine ... when they calmed a bit, I'd collect the bottle of metho out of the car and ask them if they could tell the folks what metho was made from (everything over here has to be labelled regarding the contents) 99% ethanol, that is why the alcoholics drank it, it was the methanol they mixed with it pre the being sued for adding anything that could injure or kill someone without a poisons information label being attached, it was then removed, but the meth part of the name remained ..... it is also the stuff the moonshiners make in their stills and water down to sell to their customers so they don't kill themselves .... not good for business.

Now, if you think you can see the layer between the alcohol and the water in the next alcoholic drink you have, you should maybe stop drinking ......

As an added piece of food for thought, the "Super Car" series over here in Australia, were running 85% ethanol, it might be down to 80% or so now, yet they produce engine power that is out of this world ..... top Alcohol and the Nitro class use it to mix with the nitromethane ......

The fact ethanol can carry more than 50% water by volume before it becomes non flammable (the old under proof/over proof rum, could it hold a flame) makes it a great fuel additive, along with toluene/exylene ( https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/toluene-or-xylene-fuel-tips/) or basically paint thinners, sold for years by BP Petroleum as Methyl Benzene, until it was exposed to be a made up name by BP and was actually toluene added to standard fuel. BP did a massive clean up campaign spreading the rumour that the whole Methyl Benzene was a made up parody and BP denied ever advertising their fuel contained it ...... but I did find this from the National Film and Sound Archives
Bob and Dolly Dyer's BP Pick-a-Box was a legendary Australian radio and television quiz show. Sponsored by BP from 1959, the TV show featured the famous "Money or the Box" catchcry and ran until 1971. BP’s advertisements of the era heavily promoted premium fuel containing methylbenzene (toluene). [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]

Fuel dilution has been an ongoing problem over here in Australia, both petrol and diesel, I once was caught out at a fuel distributor service stn outlet (mixing tanks advertised as storage tanks out the back taking up a very large area) the tanker driver must have dropped the "additive" into the wrong tank intake pipe, I had 1/4 tank when I filled up and made it less than 1 km to workshop yard, where the Hilux ute died ..... stripped the carby down and poured the fuel into a tin, it would not burn and left a white powder when it evaporated .... they paid me twice the premium fuel station price for a full tank of fuel in exchange from the fuel I drained from the tank ..... suited me fine, the company had paid for the fuel fill anyways

T1 Terry

 

Since there are experts on this topic in the thread... a testament (I think) and a question

Whilst living in WA, used Heet in my SV650 commuter year-round but esp in the winter. If you want evidence water in fuel can ruin your day when it's -5C / 23F on the commute... just get a blob or two in your float bowls above freezing, let it set overnight... then try to commute needing ride the snow between tracks, as the tracks're too black-ice-y

There's the yellow bottle (isopropanol), and red (methanol -- called Iso-Heet, in a twist ). Tried both in this use case, & red worked best by a long ways, all else being the same. Didn't notice any degradation of the fuel-touching components on disassembly, organic or metal -- nor weirdness on the exhaust side either (Akropovic stainless headers and can). Got much better fuel economy and starting too boot, red vs. yellow... but only in winter. In summers, used it mainly to slow down gumming a bit if needed sit (and on 39C / 102F days in summer on Kitsap Peninsula -- which shocked the f*** out of me, 1st time -- does help).

Since carburetors have open access to atmo by nature... means the fuel's constantly exposed to ambient humidity too -- which in a place with glacial moraine troughs and drumlins as the rule, means over 27C / 80F, it's effin' muggy summers. Why was the isopropanol formulation so much less effective than methanol?

Didn't and doesn't matter, as it worked ... but curious as to why the difference in a 11.5:1 compression 4-st carbureted vehicle, when the difference in my 9:1 EFI Paseo was minimal to none?

 

You need close to twice as much methanol as petrol to get the same power, but methanol is around 135 octane, where ethanol is around 115 octane, so the higher compression can utilise the higher octane rating and running rich on petrol is running closer to the correct ratio running a percentage of methanol. The low compression EFI would have an oxygen sensor in the exhaust and hold the fuel ration at 14.7:1 or leaner, the carburetors are just a fuel/air mixing device, no feed back loop to lean them out.

Isopropanol is a crap octane booster and burns poorly, ethanol burns well and a general purpose octane booster, commonly used by fuel companies to turn poor fuel into useable fuel, add more and it becomes boosted octane fuel, add more and it becomes a premium fuel, run close to neat it is a race fuel. Methanol is the king regarding octane boosting, the fuel rate required is the problem, but mixed with ethanol (that first batch from the moonshiners stile) is the best of both worlds .... if you can get onto a supply of that, you are on a winner ..... if you can get enough to redistill it to remove and excess water and you have a potent octane booster.

For turbo charged engines, 50:50 water and methanol sprayed into the intake after the intercooler, will stop the detonation that breaks ring lands and chill the incoming air down to close to zero*C, but too much methanol will turn the moisture in the air into ice crystals .... that will keep the backs of the intake valves clean, but it erodes away the alloy head intake ports and cyl heads while the ice crystals form water droplets rather than the water boiling off as steam under high compression and turning into superheated steam when it absorbs that premature flame front that causes the detonation, two flame front colliding .....
The super heated steam then desperately tried to return to water droplets as the combustion pressure drops and must shed a lot of heat energy to do that, so it improves the down force on the piston and pushes a much denser post combustion cloud through the turbo charger, then drops the pressure by rapid cooling after it exits the turbocharger creating a greater pressure differential across the turbo input : output, improving turbo efficiency .....

That fine balance of water to methanol and injected onto the back of the intake valve/s is the key to making big HP and torque ....

That research and proving on both the dyno and drag racing was all probably 30 yrs ago, but it is still relevant today .....

T1 Terry

 

Storing with a near empty fuel tank allows larger turn overs of the air in the tank. That brings in more oxygen and moisture to the fuel. Those are what degrades the fuel. Could also lead to rusting on the inside of metal tanks.That's why it is recommended to have a full tank for storage.

The octane rating and cylinder cooling from the alcohol makes a bigger difference with the higher compression.

Ethanol can attack the oxide coating of aluminum, eventually leading to wear. The oxide has a stronger attraction to water, which leads to the water getting between it and the ethanol. That's how hydrous ethanol blends protect the aluminum.

Ethanol can damage some rubbers and plastics. That is the main concern with using higher concentrations of the alcohol in cars not rated for them. Other problems for older cars comes down to the ethanol being a better cleaner than gasoline, and the build up of gunk in the fuel system of an old car coming loose.

Fiberglass fuel tanks in some boats is a big no with ethanol. The alcohol dissolves the resin of the fiberglass over time.

 

You forgot to mention that Ethanol builds up laminates on the inside of the engine, which is why auto industry fought and won against corn lobby trying to put more than 10% ethanol in our fuel a while back.

Also ethanol is hydrophilic and here in the PNW where we have near 100% humidity 8 months of the year you can see endless exhaust pipes blowing water vapor.

And to your point about storage, I was mostly referring to small engines like lawnmowers and woodchippers, which have plastic tanks and running them to empty is the best way to do Winter storage up here.

And I agree, when I'm storing a car that I know I won't be used for a long time I'll fill the tank with no-ethanol gas to prevent water/humidity from having access to the system.

 

You can see that anyway, because they are reacting gasoline (hydrocarbons) with oxygen in air, chiefly producing carbon dioxide and water.