Marion Nestle's book What To Eat is a sound approach to nutrition. The bottom line is to support the local economy (vs. one-half way around the world). It makes no sense to expend large amounts of energy to transport food extraordinarily long distances as is the current practice. We do not need fruit grown in Chile on our morning breakfast. Make an effort to minimize the ingestion of pesticides because you never know what the synergistic effect may be. It is the long-term effects that count, not a single meal. Bruce Ames (Ames Cancer test) professor emeritis of Biochemistry at UC-Berkeley places no credibility in "organic" foods. Although he does recommend a daily multivitamin. Pesticides are not required to raise crops. It is the expansive high volume monocultures that we insist in imposing upon the land despite climate, soils and water constraints. The goal is to have sustainable agriculture that benefits the soil, grower, shipper, vendor and consumer. Organic farming is more long-term sustainable for soils, vendors and consumers - often with higher yields. Current farming practices are often "locked in" (we have been doing it this way for 25 years . . . if it ain't broke don't fix it) and not open to alternative practices. We looked at production costs world wide for Lloyd's of London. We were surprised to find many Amish farmers have low to moderate production costs (without pesticides), proportionally high yields (compared to corporate farms), and very low labor costs. We re-interviewed Amish farmers to inquire as to how their labor costs could be so low. Amish see labor as a benefit, not a cost. We enjoy a large year round organic garden. Food is always available, always high quality and provides extra peace of mind for ourselves and those we share our garden with.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(koa @ Jan 25 2007, 09:20 AM) [snapback]380630[/snapback]</div> Those crops are either being grown wrong, on the wrong scale, or simply shouldn't be grown in that location IMO. Improper use of subsidies are the problem.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Jan 25 2007, 09:02 AM) [snapback]380623[/snapback]</div> Wow. This is a shock. Are you also discounting the benefits of sustainable farming? Crop rotation... that sort of thing? I don't buy organic for the hype. I buy it for the benefit to the environment... which indeed is "better for you." Same way I make my othe purchase decisions... do I buy from WalMart, or do I buy from my local family-owned store for $2 more?
And I just bought organic ketchup for the first time this weekend...Heinz, no less. Not much different in price. If it's on the shelf in front of me, I'll buy organic. I just don't go out of my way to do it! (With milk and eggs as exceptions..)
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Jan 29 2007, 10:17 AM) [snapback]382345[/snapback]</div> Great - but lets make sure you don't forget that its voluntary. You are welcome to spend your money any way you want (at the local store, for organic food... etc.) However, people forget and next thing you know they want to impose their ideas of what is best on everyone else by making it mandatory. I may wish to spend my money on other things which I may deem more important to myself, the environment or other people.
for some foods, organic makes sense. for others, as has been mentioned many times here, it's a waste. we buy non-organic because it's cheaper. if it costs the same, then sure. why not. however, whenever we have kids, i might change my mind. developmental neurotoxicity scares me enough, one of my committee members studies pesticides and cns development. you can make the argument that the brain is still developing into your 20s... but ah. well. and ssimon, you're right, many (if not most) pesticides are fat-soluble. that's also how they get into the brain!
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(John in LB @ Jan 29 2007, 11:58 AM) [snapback]382384[/snapback]</div> Whoa! Deep breath. Where did this come from? I was only intending on discussing the merits/benefits of organic foods. I've mentioned the reasons that I purchase what I do. Did I somehow give the impression that I wanted everybody to do as I do? Honestly... where did I ever imply that I wanted to force anybody to buy organic?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(galaxee @ Jan 29 2007, 04:19 PM) [snapback]382396[/snapback]</div> I can't take credit as this was not the intent of my comment. What I've read is that since pesticides adhere more readily to foods with higher fat content they cannot be rinsed away with washing as easily.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Jan 29 2007, 12:39 PM) [snapback]382405[/snapback]</div> You did not in any way. I was just adding my two cents to the conversation - and certainly not attacking you. On a personal level, I don't believe organics are worth the benefits - sure, they are nice and may or may not be better than commercially grown foods. But they are not free. In fact, it has become an industry onto itself - profiteering based on people's perception of goodness. My concern is that next thing you know, it is being legislated as mandatory because of popular myths or because of some impact on a very small proportion of the population. The result is that we all end up paying for what I perceive as a negligible benefit. Of course, I also am a believer in science and progress. In that respect, I think commercially grown foods have fed the hungry of the world; and I also think that genetically altered foods are a benefit to mankind (with appropriate testing and controls.)
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(John in LB @ Jan 30 2007, 02:14 AM) [snapback]382708[/snapback]</div> Good to go. Thanks for clarification.
The good thing about being old is that you can say whatever you want and people disregard it because you’re old. And you can eat whatever you want because buy the time it kills you, you will already be dead. How else does one build up immunity?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(skruse @ Jan 25 2007, 03:04 PM) [snapback]380737[/snapback]</div> This is lovely, lovely sentiment. I think that it's important to embrace the idea that labor *in itself* is worthwhile (and pay less attention to the return)...and that 'a job well done, no matter how humble, is noble.' Getting back to this idea is an excellent cure for affluenza, in my opinion. It's also a lot less egocentric than how we are now.
I buy organic because of the generally better taste. From that aspect, the only problem is that many times when I go out to eat, I find myself saying something like, "I can make this better at home. Why am I paying for food that tastes noticeably worse than the food I have at home?" That's a down-side of buying mostly organic. :lol: However, I think it is also healthier. Because we have so few good organic meat producers locally, we also "import" much of our meat from Montana. We have found a farmer that free-ranges virtually all of his animals and I have found that even though I eat his red meat, it has not adversely effected my cholesterol levels. We also don't use vitamin supplements and both my wife and I seem to be none the worse for it. Personally, I think the nutrition content of organic food is much better than "conventional." She buys most of our food, and most of that food is organic. Fortunately, we have two local outlets (not Whole Foods or Wild Oats, etc), but our local chain supermarket, Wegman's, carries quite a bit of organic produce and other organic items. Sorry I don't have a link to it, however, there were results of a study released in the past few years that say that organic farming is just as productive as conventional farming. Personally, I don't mind cleaning an aphid or two off of my lettuce. :lol: IMHO, the world would be better off "organic."
We buy organic all the time. Only free-reign chicken eggs. Only soy milk, no dairy products except cheese. As far as taste is concerned, organic = variety of taste = for same product. Especially during our winter, since the veggies and fruits have to be picked before maturity. No two tomatoes will taste alike and aren't pretty to look at. The non-organic usually tastes better, if you get rid of the skin after a good washing. But in the summer! Wow, awesome the organics. Had trouble with tomatoes last summer, too much rain in Montreal, and not enough sun.
I buy some things organic. I generally buy whatever looks the best in the store. I don't think organic is a viable solution for all food. The entire world was organic over 100 years ago and there was mass starvation. However, I do believe that locally grown, organic produce is a good thing. I'm going to start a composting/grow your own thread if one isn't already active as I think that's more important than paying $5/lb for organic asparagus. What drove me nuts about buying organic when I lived in CA was watching the veggies turn to mush in my crappy apartment fridge in 3 days. Grass fed beef? That's great, too.
Have you guys read Michael Pollan's "The Omnivore's Dilemma"? or "Botany of Desire"? Organic farming may not be a solution for the world but does it have to be? Does it mean that each of us in this forum cannot take advantage of something other than industrial farming methods? There is not much stopping us to grow our own food and take part in local farmers markets. Mass starvation is much more likely to happen with our industrial system than than with locally grown and decentralized systems. Centralization is nearly always more expensive and fragile in infrastructure. 1min clip of Michael Pollan at the 2006 Bioneers A 1hr video and a talk after a short reading of his "new" book
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(F8L @ Feb 10 2007, 07:03 PM) [snapback]388219[/snapback]</div> I respectfully disagree 100%. There is a LOT stopping us for growing all of our food--namely a lack of arable land. I have a house on a small lot. I can keep a good sized vegetable garden. Most people aren't so lucky. You can grow herbs plus a few batches (not even bushels) per season if you live in an apartment. It's something, but it's not self sustaining. Big farms are a gazillion times more productive than small ones. Are they as environmentally/socially (Discussion of the exploitation of farm workers is probably best left to Fred's Pancakes I guess.) responsible as small farms? Of course not. We did not grow enough food to feed all Americans when farms were smaller. Now, there is enough food to feed not just America but most of the planet. I love that we have the option of organic food. As you said, it's not the cure-all. It is a great option. IMHO, it should just be part of our diets. It doesn't have to be all of it.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(allargon @ Feb 11 2007, 05:08 PM) [snapback]388646[/snapback]</div> It's ok to disagree. This encourages us to lay out our viewpoints and this is how we learn. This is why I mentioned taking part in farmers markets. Industrial farming does indeed feed a larger population base but at what cost to the land, our security, our health? The type of farming being done now is definately not sustainable so what we have is a temporary system that is not much different than living off the principle in your bank account. Sooner or later it will run out and we will have a very large population (made possible by all this extra food) who will feel the effects just like every other specie in our natural system. Overshooting carrying capacity is not something we should be aiming for, living within the limits of our systems should be. My point is that while not everyone can farm their own food, there are alternatives for those who choose to go that route. "Modern and Improved Farming" is a terrible route IMO and serves only to further enslave us in a horible economic system that cares nothing for life unless it somehow produces a monetary profit. Again, it comes down to consumption levels, waste (nature doesn't have a concept of waste), and what is being consumed.
Also . . .community farming. ..we pay for a share in a local farmers harvest, the crops are delivered to various drop off points. Some farmers open their fields, provide baskets and you pick your own vegetables for the week, which is my personal favorite. On the average the cost is about $30.00 a week for about 10 different fresh, organic vegetables, flowers and herbs. Better than the $60.00-$100.00, I shell out everytime I go to Whole Foods.
