Are hybrids dead

That isn't the only time that I have heard Erin Burnett bash the Prius. She says Toyota has never made money on the Prius, but did not offer up any evidence to support that claim.

I say that Toyota has stated that they were making a profit on the Prius, and I doubt that they would have been trying to increase production for the last few years if that were not true.

The current economic collapse (and crash of oil prices) may have altered the equation in the last few months, but that does not mean that Toyota wasn't making money.

 

Maryann Keller was interviewed for Frontline and here is the transcript:

FRONTLINE: heat: interviews: maryann keller | PBS
(Posted Oct. 21, 2008, conducted a few months before July 2008)

• "When you just place a hybrid system in a conventional vehicle, you don't get the maximum benefit from it. It's very interesting to look at fuel-economy numbers on hybrid versus nonhybrid versions of the identical car or SUV. You'll find that, very often, the hybrid will deliver 1 or 2 miles per gallon better in the city and 1 or 2 miles per gallon worse on a highway than the conventional car."
  • 25/31 (25) - Camry 2.4 L automatic (Fuel Economy)
  • 33/34 (34) - Camry 2.4 L hybrid
  • 20/28 (23) - Ford Escape 2.5 L automatic
  • 34/31 (32) - Ford Escape 2.5 L hybrid
• "You've got a vehicle that is very, very heavy with a battery life of approximately 100,000 miles,"
  • "A total of six Generation I (model years 2002 and 2003) Toyota Prius hybrid electric vehicles (HEVs) entered fleet and accelerated reliability testing during November and December 2001 in two fleets in Arizona. Three of the vehicles were driven between 15,000 and 28,000 miles each (fleet testing); one was driven 70,000 miles. Of the remaining two vehicles, one reached 160,030 miles and active mileage accumulation stopped in December 2004, while the other reached 167,665 miles (accelerated reliability testing) during April 2005. The two HEVs driven 160,000+ miles will have their fuel efficiencies retested on dynamometers (with and without air conditioning), and their batteries will be capacity tested." No batteries were replaced. Advanced Vehicle Testing Activity: 2002/2003 Toyota Prius Fleet and Accelerated Reliability Testing - July 2005
• "I think people who have hybrids, for example, living in the South, where you have to put the air conditioner on because it's insufferably hot, get even worse fuel economy, because you're having to use the engine to drive the compressor on the air conditioning system."
  • All together, "not in the Toyota or Ford hybrids."
• "The best use of a hybrid is how my daughter-in-law uses it. She's had a Prius for years. She drives the kids to school. She does all of her local, in-town errands in that car. And I think that her fuel economy is in excess of 50 miles per gallon, because she's using the hybrid technology to its best advantage, which is to use the regenerative braking [to recharge the battery] through stop-and-start driving."
  • "daughter-in-law" ... glad to know you get along so well.
• "If you're driving on the highway at 60 miles per hour, you've got the engine going, and it's consuming gasoline. You're just not going to get very good fuel economy with it."
  • That typically gives my older 2003, NHW11 between 53-54 MPG.

That is all the time I have for this charlatan. I'll have to do a slow burn for a while before I put together a data package and send it to her editor and anyone who cites her as a source. The spirit of "CNW Marketing" will always have another liar pop-up. Like SPAMers and trolls, the game is "whack-a-mole."

Bob Wilson

 

They're getting pretty desperate now. Panic is obviously setting in.

The 2010 Prius ups the ante, making an already bad situation for competitors even worse... and they know it. So, it's time to push an offensive against hybrids now.

Too bad. We'll keep pointing out the nonsense they spread.
.

 

"Hybrids are actually not a good way to improve fuel efficiency."
What currently existing way is better?

"Hybrids are very complex"
SO you have a 4 or 6 speed auto with hundreds of moving parts or 2 electric motors and a power split device which is like 1 of 4 or 5 planetary gear sets in that automatic transmission. Hybrid = 6 major moving part transmission, non hybrid = about 50 major moving parts in the transmission.

"Hybrids have 2 drive trains."
Where is the second one? I haven't seen it.

"People are not going to pay the premium."
There is a premium? You mean the lowest depreciation of almost any car on the market?

What a load.

I want some of the drugs they are on.

Misslexi, you did good.
They even sound like they are panicing.

 

I want some of the kickbacks they are getting to spread that misinformation.

 

How could you spend so much money?

 

I would start an automobile marketing company. I would work for auto companies and plant stories in the media to denigrate the competition. I want to call my company CNW marketing, but I believe that name has already been taken.

 

Oh brother.

Having driven many times my brother's 2002 Prius and several times my brother-in-law's 2006 Prius, there's nothing wrong with these cars (though you do have to get used to the funny engine sounds as it switches on and off).

Since the technology is now mature, Toyota is already profitable with the Prius, even the new 2010 model (since Toyota is using well-proven NiMH battery packs). If I had the money I'd put down a deposit on a 2010 model, too.

 

The piece is not upsetting, it is Maryann Keller being treated as "an expert." But it turns out, this Forbes piece gives a summary of her career:
Maryann N. Keller Profile - Forbes.com

<AHEM> Who is reading her script and teleprompter. I think it more accurate to call her someone who plays the part of 'hard nosed business interviewer.'

The aggressors, the liars, always get the first lick. Often they speak in forums we don't follow ... we are fact based folks. So Maryann Keller is just the latest to pop-up and no doubt, won't be the last.

I find it interesting that my Google alert never gave me a clue about her. It will take a day or so to find out what happened or why she has escaped my notice. Like small critters of disgust, for every one you find, there will be 3-5 who have yet to be detected. Perhaps "b*llsh*t" is not the best search term. <grins>

FYI, my Google alert was for "hybrid electric" and I also need one for "hybrid car." Search for Maryann Keller revealed she wrote a book about GM, probably the source of her 'hybrid expertise.' That she is echoing GM's claim makes sense because that is all she has had for source material. Unfortunately, she has gotten a lot of press before showing up on our radar. There is a 'herd mentality' about such things and that makes our task a little more difficult.

Bob Wilson

 

Those famous three words "follow the money" seem to me a red flag...who pays these folks anyway ? There must be a $ somewhere ...they just can't be that stupid if they have really researched the topic as good reporters will do...

 

I don't think she said anything that was particularly untruthful or derogatory. You probably could improve fuel efficiency with ICE technology alone. The hybrid does cost a premium. What's not being stated here though, is that hybrid technology is the bridge that eventually will allow us to transition from oil energy to grid energy. Oil will run out, that's a fact, but it's hard to convince people this when they're only paying $1.70 a gallon. So basically, we're going to have to wait for the next fuel crisis before we get real on transitioning our cars to the grid. This isn't going to happen over night, probably 2-3 generations(my kid's kid will be plugging in to fuel their cars). And while we're in the midst of this financial crisis, people aren't going to sweat the fuel crisis.

 

Hi Burritos,

What she said that is an ignorant falsehood is that Hybrids are complicated. Because that uses the ignorance of the common person towards the EXTREME complexity of the automatic transmission in most cars on the road. These standard automatic transmissions that everybody accepts, and churns out bucs for inital purchase, and repair typically before 100 K miles - are much more complex than any physical thing in a HSD system (where software complexity replaces physical part complexity).

Yes, I think the pure economy of a Prius has taken a hit with low gas prices. But people go out and buy Acuras. These are quite expensive compared to Hyundai's. Why? The Prius will sell based on the low repair and maintenance requirements, smooth operation and reduced refueling visits ( which saves time ).

From the noise this person is generating, I think we may need some legislation to improve air quality in cities. Because it sounds like the industry is out there promoting old-fashion methods, and its just not going to happen in the marketplace with such powerful forces acting in an anti-social way. Specifically, all engines in new cars should have an auto-stop system by 2020. The EPA Fuel Economy Test has no provision for stationary idling that is typical of Metropolitan area traffic. And this wastes lots of gas, and creates lots of pollution. In fact, the Malibu Hybrid has one of these systems, but it only gets 1 mpg performance improvement by the EPA test. But the gas saved by a 1 mile long, three lane wide , traffic jam of Malibu Hybrids is going to be tremendous compared to a standard Malibu. And such traffic is the real world.

 

Let's hope they didn't use our bridge loan to pay for this crap...

 

I FOUND IT....The book that Maryann Keller wrote in 1993 called Collision. Basically she was "analyzing" GM, Toyota, and Volkswagen. In the last paragraph of the last chapter, she answers the ultimate question of "Which is the best car company in the world?" Here is her answer:

"Right now, that company is GM."


QED

 

After a quick Google review of Maryann Keller articles, she clearly learned everything she knows about hybrids from GM. Considering the source, she matched the GM culture perfectly. I don't detect malice as much as ignorance of the two approaches although sometimes it is hard to tell the difference.

In her defense, she pointed out that GM is now run by accountants, not engineers. Sad to say, she remains woefully ignorant of real hybrids. If someone applies her GM knowledge to Toyota, they are making a mistake but it doesn't matter. Toyota has a few advantages GM lost 40 years ago.

Bob Wilson

 

I just watched the video of Maryann Keller, the women knows nothing. I can't believe she is considered and expert.