Troubleshooting 04 Prius Gas engine activation issues

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Care, Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by phoenix_MR2, Jul 29, 2009.

  1. phoenix_MR2

    phoenix_MR2 New Member

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    First off, I am new to the forum however not new to forums in general :)

    I am an MR2 owner (yes, I am excited to read about the mr2 Prius) and I am mechanically inclined (we have old cars, it helps) and can rip apart and put a 3s or a 5s back together without much help. Unfortunately a friend of mine is in a bit of a bind. She has an 04 prius hatchback and its giving her problems and has asked me to help in any way as the dealer just quoted her $900 dollars for the repair bill and that is a number that is way out of reach for her.

    A bit of background on the car.....

    106,000 miles
    fresh fuel filter
    could use a tune up though
    has not had the 100,000 mile checkup/fresh up thing that she said is recommended by the dealer.

    I have never worked on a prius nor am I wanting too. I can do the tune up no problem as far as plugs and whatnot however anything past that, and I think I would be unqualified however i figured i would give this a try. Just FYI, I will be able to find out what the dealer said tomorrow on what they thing is wrong however they said there is a list of 9 things which seems unreal to me and I am hoping that they are just giving her dealership B.S. like I have found with many (not all) dealerships.

    Okay...so on to the issue.

    The electric drive is running fine however whenever the car goes from electic to gas powered (sorry if i say the wrong terms) then the engine all of a sudden starts having issues like stuttering and whatnot. From what she descibed, she is getting intermittent loss of power and bogging.

    When she told me this, of course a million things ran through my head from ignition components from plugs to a fuel issue or even a vacuum hose leak. I didn't have time to inspect the engine bay before she turned it in however I will have a look at it tomorrow.

    Does anyone have any "common" problem answers for me? I am sure it could be a million things but if there was a quirk with the engine that is common that I should look at then that would be awesome and I could probably fix it for much less than the price.

    Any help is much appreciated!

    - Dave
     
    #1 phoenix_MR2, Jul 29, 2009
  2. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    Hi Dave,

    Welcome to the forum.

    It is really unlikely that your friend's Prius has a new fuel filter. This is because the fuel filter is integral to the fuel tank.

    With a driveability issue such as you've described, and given that scheduled maintenance has not occurred timely, I'd suggest that you start by performing the following:

    1. replace the spark plugs using the correct NGK or Denso iridium spark plugs (which will cost around $12 each), resist using a cheap aftermarket alternative.

    2. check the engine air filter and replace as needed

    3. replace the engine oil and oil filter, make sure that 5W-30 viscosity is used and do not overfill the crankcase. 3.5 US quarts is sufficient. An excessive oil level can cause no-start issues.

    4. clean the throttle body and throttle plate. Black gunk tends to form due to the engine's use of the Atkinson cycle. This can cause engine no-start issues.

    5. Does your friend buy name-brand gasoline or the cheapest available gas? If the latter then you might try using a bottle of Chevron Techron to see if that will help.

    Once these basic steps have been performed, if your friend's car still has problems, then note if any warning lights appear. If so, then the DTC need to be read to see what the problem is. If the car's engine and hybrid vehicle ECUs have not had current revision firmware downloaded, this might be needed now.

    Once you get the driveability issue under control, note that the engine and inverter coolants both need to be replaced at 100K miles. There's lots of advice posted about how to do this. The engine coolant loop is harder than the inverter coolant loop due to the presence of the coolant heat recovery system which can trap air when the system is drained and refilled.

    Also, the transaxle fluid should be changed if this has not been done yet.

    Good luck.
     
    #2 Patrick Wong, Jul 29, 2009
    1 person likes this.
  3. phoenix_MR2

    phoenix_MR2 New Member

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    Thank you on the advice of the fuel filter, I will bring that issue up with her and ask what was done with that. Is the fuel filter apart of the fuel pump?

    1. Not a problem, I only use NGK and am not a huge fan of iridium plugs. Easy for me.

    2. Will check out the air filter and will most likely replace just because its there.

    3. The dealer is doing the oil change so I don't have to worry about that.

    4. Sounds like a plan, that is something I can inspect and do on my own.

    I don't know what DTC is but I will run a search. Does the prius have self diagnostic capabilities? I know in the MR2 I can bridge 2 connections in the diagnostic port and count the engine dash light flash and get a code from that.

    I wish I could say the car has had better care but in her defense, she doesn't have the money to have the service performed. The dealer charged her $120 bucks for the diagnostic and oil change which is a lot of money for her right now so I am trying to make this as cheap as possible however she does need this car so in the end, it will be fixed properly even if the dealer has to do it.

    Do you have a recommendation for transaxle fluid? Buy from Toyota or is there an aftermarket brand that can be used? (mr2 world, we prefer aftermarket)

    Thanks for the help!

    I am open to other suggestions but I will check these items tomorrow evening and report back.
     
    #3 phoenix_MR2, Jul 29, 2009
  4. phoenix_MR2

    phoenix_MR2 New Member

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    oh, do you have any links to write-ups or DIY stuff to the coolant changes? I don't even know what an inverter is or looks like on a prius and where to get the fluid?
     
    #4 phoenix_MR2, Jul 29, 2009
  5. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    The fuel pump and fuel filter are both located within the fuel tank and cannot be changed unless the fuel tank is replaced.

    In general, "blink" codes are not available with most Prius ECUs. Literally hundreds of diagnostic codes can potentially be logged. DTC is diagnostic trouble code.

    A high-mileage Prius out of warranty can become expensive to repair because dealer service is quite expensive and in general third party alternatives do not exist in most metropolitan areas.

    The correct transaxle fluid is Toyota ATF WS and four US quarts will be needed. This costs ~$8 per quart.

    The correct coolant is Toyota Super Long Life Coolant which is premixed with distilled water. You will need ~3 US gallons, which costs ~$20+ per gallon.

    I've posted previously on how to do the coolant changes. You can do a search or else download repair manual info at techinfo.toyota.com which is a subscription website.

    Since you are unfamiliar with the inverter you need to study up on this before you attempt the coolant change procedure. Replacing the inverter will cost into the high four-digits at the Toyota dealer.

    As I previously indicated, the engine coolant change is even harder because of the CHRS canister that makes it hard to purge air out of the system. Plan to spend a few hours just on that.

    Before removing the iridium spark plugs, remove the igniters and look within the spark plug wells for water. Examine each igniter to see if there is any cracking or staining of the igniter plastic body. How about the high voltage terminal of the igniter, any discoloration, rust or other issues? If so, the igniter should be replaced.
     
    #5 Patrick Wong, Jul 29, 2009
  6. phoenix_MR2

    phoenix_MR2 New Member

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    Thanks for the help!

    I got the diagnosis from the dealer yesterday and wasn't happy with the results they gave me/her.

    This is what they wanted to do.....

    New sparks
    New coils
    New water pump
    new coolant

    Which totaled $900 for the labor and parts which I thought was a little ridiculous but after calling up a friend from Toyota I got the jist of the price list. Just FYI, new coils are expensive! about $95 a piece. Luckily my friend from Toyota is a good friend and I do get a hefty discount and free shipping to me. But I didn't go with new parts yet, I don't believe in changing parts until they are tested. I also got the notes and they recommended not driving it which was obvious as it was still missfiring. So we parked the car across the street from the dealership in a parking lot till we decided what to do. They also stated that the engine looked like it had been submersed in water and the engine was muddy and they cleaned mud out of the spark plug wells and off the coils. when I finally popped the hood I found a nice and dry engine. Yes, it was extremely dusty/dirty but muddy was a bad word to write down, especially since there was no evidence of water being on the engine as the dust would have had "dried rivers". upon firther inspection of my own, I did find a little moist mud around the oil fill cap which is to be expected, however nothing major. Took one side of a blue shop paper towel to clean up. I also noticed another thing which I was quite upset with. The coil bolt on each one had a nice thick layer of dust on them which means they didn't take the coils off and they didn't inspect the spark plug well. I was quite shocked with this as they stated on paper (which I do have and if you want me to scan it, I can but I think I have gotten my point accross with my story) that they did do that and cleaned.

    Well, I decided right there to change the spark plugs so I got some NGK Iridiums from the local Napa and removed the coils and plugs. The coils were a bit dirty, it does look like there was moisture in there on 1 of the coils and was a bit dirty, but nothing drastic. The rest of the coils were just a little dusty but again, nothing serious. I cleaned them up with a rag and inspected the plugs. They looked.....old, dirty, good color though on the tips so I'm not worried about combustion problem, and they looked....well.....used. I replaced those, reinstalled everything and she ran like a dream.

    I had her drive the car out to my shop and thats where it sits. I am going to put the car up on my lift this weekend while she is out of town and see if the water pump is in fact leaking. I can't tell if there is coolant in the sytem or not because I needed a flashlight and just didn't have one at that point.

    I am super dissapointed though with the dealers analysis and the fact that they wanted to charge $400 dollars for new coils when there is obviously not a problem with them. I will however before writing a letter to them after I test the coils with my trusty Volt meter and a toyota repair manual when I download it today.

    Luckily the owner kept every service record of the car from when she bought it in 04. I inspected them and found nothing to say that the plugs were ever changed. After scolding her for not having them changed (;)) I quickly drew to the conclusion that this was the problem and I am not too worried about anything else. I will check the rest of the dealers diagnostic and look at the water pump and the coils and make a decision then.

    The car drove from the parking lot too my shop without any issues which was about 10 miles away on the highway.

    So I do have the car for the next 10 days so I will be doing most of the maintenance like fluid changes and whatnot stated above.

    Thanks for the help Patrick! I should be around for awhile :)
     
    #6 phoenix_MR2, Jul 30, 2009
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