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Featured Apple iCar BEV coming in 2028, downgraded to SAE Level 2+

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by Gokhan, Feb 17, 2024.

  1. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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  2. AndersOne

    AndersOne Member

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    wow... level 2+ only? And still 4 years to go. Thats what I would call the opposite of ambitious. Level 2+ might be the standard in most cars soon. Even the Prius Prime has kinda limited 2+ already...
     
  3. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    That’s because US legislation doesn’t allow level 3, right? Except one or two states?
     
  4. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    They are extremely ambitious, bu there is a limit to what can be safely done with current technology.

    I would say Prius (TSS 3.0) is more like Level 1.5. Tesla is Level 2. So, Apple iCar with Level 2.5 will be more sophisticated than Tesla, several times better than Tesla and an order of magnitude (ten times) better than TSS 3.0, as this is a somewhat logarithmic scale. Level 3 would be ten times better than what Tesla has now, which is very hard to achieve with the current AI technology and sensor costs/availability. Level 3 requires three times as many sensors as Level 2.
     
  5. mikefocke

    mikefocke Prius v Three 2012, Avalon 2011

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    Who knows where Tesla will be that far in the future. By that time, how many car miles will Apple have used to prove/improve their system? And compared to Tesla?
     
  6. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    No one knows, but Tesla developed their technology rapidly and then limited their further development to simple software tweaks only. I don't think they are ambitious at doing anything significantly better than what they currently have in the foreseeable future.
     
  7. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Level 2 starts at ACC and LTA. 2+ is a recent designation that allows some more advanced features. Level 3 is only allowed in California and Nevada at this time. Even if available in more states, there is probably a higher cost to certifying the system for public roads. Mercedes will be offering Level 3 in those states.
     
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  8. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    and of course, there's the rest of the car
     
  9. AndersOne

    AndersOne Member

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    Thats not correct, at least to that scale Prius with TJA is closer to Level 2+ (even for limited applications) and Tesla is just 2 as they dont support hands free driving. Hands free driving doesnt need much extra hw as well besides internal driver monitoring which new cars must have anyway (in EU).

    People often overlook that, in addition to stringent safety regulations - a huge aspect of Level 3 is liability. So level 2+ (an inofficial term) is more a way to chicken out of Level 3 while still trying to market that you are better than Level 2.
     
  10. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    Hands-free driving only for speeds less than 25 mph: totally useless.

    TSS 2.0 and TSS 3.0 can hardly do anything other than to follow the lane marks and keep a following distance—the latter of which I don't trust in many conditions. And that's hands-free only for speeds less than 25 mph. I think Toyota's sensors and AI are rudimentary, but they do help as a copilot, and I use them on the freeway as a copilot.
     
  11. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Copilot is all Level 2 is suppose to be.
     
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  12. mikefocke

    mikefocke Prius v Three 2012, Avalon 2011

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    I use TSS 2.0 as an assist on 4 lane divided well marked highways to reduce my fatigue on longer trips. Head up and hands on always. Have no desire for it to drive for me in cities or twisting rural roads. Having been involved with computers, I just can't see an assist being error free for 20 years and 200k miles which is my standard. I'm lucky to achieve that.

    I guess TSS 2.0 as level 2 is good enough for me.
     
  13. AndersOne

    AndersOne Member

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    Eveyone their opinion but you cannot make up stuff about SAE Levels according to your feelings.

    Toyota sensors are actually pretty good - much better than any Tesla on the road (after all they barely have sensors to begin with for cost cutting reasons). The AI is very conservative but I guess thats how you would expect it from Toyota.
     
  14. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    I am not making it up anything—I am pointing out to the system's limitations. There is Level 2, and there is Level 2. That's why they even came up with the term Level 2.5 to fill the space in between.

    Moreover, I have owned a Prius Prime with TSS 2.0 for over three years (and one with TSS-P for a year before that) and used the system extensively, but you haven't.
     
  15. AndersOne

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    You made up a new "Gokhan level definition" while the Prius is at least Level 2 according to official definitions (with a hint of 2+ accroding to inofficial ones):
     
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  16. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    That's because the SAE levels are very broad and debatable, and they don't tell you much. TSS 2.0 < TSS 3.0 < Tesla Autopilot/FSD < Apple iCar are quite different in capabilities from each other, and it is not fair to label them all Level 2 and forget about it. Even SAE came up with the new unofficial Level 2+ term. See the SAE article I posted in my OP. Do you expect Apple iCar not to have far better driving automation than TSS 3.0 (and likely even Tesla)? If you do, I think you are quite wrong.
     
  17. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    I can’t even see out of the backup cam if it’s raining
     
  18. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    The goal of the SAE levels is not to allow comparison between different manufacturer systems. SAE DC Level 1 and 2 charging different kW charging rates to define which a charger falls into, but not every car, nor charger is capable of the max rate. These are broad categories to ease discussion and regulation.

    If a car has DCC and LTA, it has Level 2 ADAS.

    Level 2+ exists because manufacturers don't want to pay the price for Level 3, either in hardware or liability; or a jurisdiction does not allow it. Yet the manufacturer wants to release some features that would fall under Level 3. TJA on the Prius Prime is a Level 3 ability, but Toyota doesn't want to be the one responsible if it crashes. So it is called a Level 2+.
     
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  19. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    Drawing an analogy to SAE charging levels? Well… :)

    Level 2+ does not exist. It is an unofficial description by manufacturers. There are also Level 2++, Level 2-99%, Level 2++++++, Level 2-99.9%, etc. That is why I emphasized how broad these levels were.

    The capabilities and use cases of Level 2 & Level 2+ cars with Juergen Hoellisch—AutoSens

    Level 3 under 25 mph? It is simply a useless feature. I live in a congested city, and I still don't need it. The system does not allow you to leave your eyes off the road anyway; so, it is more annoying than the rough equivalent of it in my TSS 2.0 system. (Mine requires touching the steering wheel and applying some gas after a full stop to restart but without eye monitoring—it is easier to use than TJA, as you don't beeped at every time your eyes go slightly off the road. It works at higher speeds as well. It is not to mention that it does not require a paid subscription.)
     
  20. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Assigning charging levels to car models by some individual's perception is just as silly as what you did with ADAS levels.

    Post some marketing material by someone actually using those terms.

    This was at your link.
    upload_2024-2-19_18-1-0.jpeg
    What is the example feature of Level 3?

    TJA is a Level 3 feature as it does drive the car on its own under limited circumstances. You not thinking it is a useful feature doesn't negate that. Toyota doesn't want to go through the steps of qualifying TSS 3.0 with TJA as Level 3, so it is Level or 2+ depending on what they feel like calling it.

    Aslo at the link, "The industry’s interest in broadening the L2 space — at the risk of blurring some definitions — came as no surprise to the industry experts who mapped out SAE’s six-level AD taxonomy. They created J3016 (see chart) as a “living” document to be updated and modified to keep pace with technology and regulations. "

    These Levels were purposely broad when created as the autonomous car field was still young. The goal was to ease discussion on the topic instead of having to learn the in house terms and goals of every party involved on the topic. It changing overtime is not unexpected. The charging level ones did.

    The SAE document detailing the ADAS levels is available for free for those that care to down load it.
    J3016_202104: Taxonomy and Definitions for Terms Related to Driving Automation Systems for On-Road Motor Vehicles - SAE International