Fish as an example

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by tochatihu, Jul 20, 2013.

  1. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    9,467
    3,656
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    Reversal of Fish Stock Decline in the Northeast Atlantic
    Current Biology
    DOI: 10.1016/j.cub.2013.06.016

    Highlights:
    • Fishing pressure on northern European fish stocks has reduced continuously since the turn of the century
    • In 2011, for the first time, the majority of assessed stocks were fished sustainably
    • Declines in pressure were associated with the effort controls of the 2002 reforms
    • Challenges remain for the recovery of many cod stocks, especially the need to prevent discarding

    +++
    The idea here is that reduced commercial fishing intensity can achieve the desired goals, the recovery of a profitable industry sector. This in spite of (typical) naysayers, who live on the perimeter of many areas involving ecological decisions.

    In general recovery does happen, whether reduced fish take or logging, or waiting enough millions of years after a marine methane exhalation or a comet strike. Does not always happen, dinosaurs did not, and Atlantic cod has not (yet).

    It is good news, we can actually live sustainably. It is hard to define, but you know it when you see it (to paraphrase a famous quote). There is a lesson here.

    But I have to 'go to the library' to get the paper. Current Biology does not willingly hard out the goodies. Imagine, they want to be paid (by me) for their publishing work. Dream on Elsevier!
     
  2. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    111,673
    50,859
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    so if we're eating less fish, are we eating more of something else?
     
  3. JMD

    JMD 2012 Prius 4 Solar Roof

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2012
    3,779
    1,282
    0
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius
    Model:
    Four
    Fish farms expansion
     
  4. hyo silver

    hyo silver Awaaaaay

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2005
    15,260
    1,599
    0
    Location:
    off into the sunset
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    Fish farms are not part of a sustainable future. Certainly not the way they're run now.
     
    FL_Prius_Driver likes this.
  5. JMD

    JMD 2012 Prius 4 Solar Roof

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2012
    3,779
    1,282
    0
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius
    Model:
    Four
    austingreen likes this.
  6. hyo silver

    hyo silver Awaaaaay

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2005
    15,260
    1,599
    0
    Location:
    off into the sunset
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    Well then, you've got some googling to do. ;)
     
    JMD likes this.
  7. icarus

    icarus Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2007
    4,884
    976
    0
    Location:
    earth
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    Farm raised Salmon is very much an environmental disaster. In addition to the possibility (probability) of farm bred fish escaping and damaging the wild gene pool, or the concentrated fish waste issue, the biggest issue is the disruption of indigenous fisheries (particularly in S. America) to provide feed for Salmon farms. Food fish are over harvested, ground to meal and shipped to fish farms.

    Like Hyo says, do some research,

    Icarus
     
  8. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    9,467
    3,656
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
  9. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2009
    13,629
    4,172
    0
    Location:
    Austin, TX, USA
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    N/A
  10. hyo silver

    hyo silver Awaaaaay

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2005
    15,260
    1,599
    0
    Location:
    off into the sunset
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    This tells me there's something seriously wrong with our definition of 'profitable'.
     
  11. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2009
    13,629
    4,172
    0
    Location:
    Austin, TX, USA
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    N/A

    Profitable is quite simple - makes a profit above a hurdle rate. Sales - costs is high enough to be better than just selling the land. Whether it is a good business to many of us means more than profit, but They seem to bring in workers from poorer villages to work the fish farms to keep labor costs down enough to make a profit in China. I fear to speculate how much they are paid a day, but it can't be very much. In the US and Canada, with its higher cost of living, I doubt fish farms like this can pay a living wage and still produce a profit.

    Fish farms compete with other food in our society. First they compete with wild fishing. Wild fishing in the OP had turned into over fishing, which is not sustainable but is profitable for those taking too many fish. Next up are commercial fish farms, that are often unsustainable. These compete with corporate meat farms that are also unsustainable. You could increase regulations high enough that these activities are only done in other countries. You could subsidize them. You could give guest migrant worker visas to have foreign workers work these bellow a living wage. Its not an easy question. In my mind a small subsidy for sustainability might help, based on a tax on the unsustainable pollution on factory farms. Given the US mess of a farm bill that is working its way through the congress, no curbs on even agricultural pollution, big give money to privileged factory farm interests I don't have much hope of the government helping sustainability. At least the agricultural policies are not as bad as the ones that caused the dust bowl. Fishing restrictions on wild stocks are a good first step.
     
  12. icarus

    icarus Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2007
    4,884
    976
    0
    Location:
    earth
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    Just like energy, how do you calculate externalities? Because you can make a "profit" on a N. American salmon farm does that take into the account the environmental costs, both locally and globally? (didn't think so!)

    Icarus
     
    hyo silver likes this.
  13. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2009
    13,629
    4,172
    0
    Location:
    Austin, TX, USA
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    N/A

    Obviously if these farms are not charged environmental costs, then they won't pay them. If you read my reply, I noted that as one item of the problem with the farm bill. Fisth farming environmental costs are pretty small compared to the environmental cost of meat factory farming, but the farm lobby has been able to keep this out of any regulation, they even removed reporting it as part of the failed cap and tax plan.

    NRDC: Facts about Pollution from Livestock Farms

    What you can do is not buy from these factory farms. This normally means a reduction of meat consumption or spending a great deal more money on food. I'm doing a mix of the two. Buying a huge amount of wild caught fish versus farmed fish isn't a good solution. Over fishing has been a bigger environmental problem than fish farm pollution. Greater fishing restrictions help. I do eat a small amount of wild caught fish, but its not a huge amount. I eat no factory farmed meat unless I am on a business trip in a rural part of the country and the restaurant choices leave that as the only option versus insulting my customers.
     
  14. JMD

    JMD 2012 Prius 4 Solar Roof

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2012
    3,779
    1,282
    0
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius
    Model:
    Four
    Interesting article on Blue Fin Tuna Fish Farms off Baja Ca.
    Bluefin tuna farming presents daunting challenge - Los Angeles Times

    The fish are caught, put in pens and when mature brought to market. However they are not allowed to be released to migrate and breed. Blue Fin Tuna Pacific is down 70% from 1970 levels. 90 % of Blue Fin are consumed in Japan with the USA market growing. The Atlantic Blue Fin a close relative is not as popular.

    Much of the capturing of the fish are done when they are breeding thus it depletes the stock at the source.

    Fish farms, or fish ranches as they are sometimes called, for bluefin tuna are places where fish corralled in the open sea are brought and kept in giant underwater cages and fattened up with sardines and tuna for between a few months to a year, and then are shot and butchered. About 20 percent of the bluefin tuna consumed in Japan is farmed from wild fish. About 400,000 bluefin tuna are being raised on farms as of 2010.

    [​IMG] The technique, which is really more like rustling than ranching, has revolutionized the bluefin industry. Fishermen scoop up schools of spawning tuna and transfer them to 50-meter-wide cages and return to the spawning area catching all the fish they can. The practice is though to be particularly damaging to fish stocks because it captures large number of fish at place they come to spawn. Not only are large numbers of fish caught they are also deprived of producing offspring.

    BLUEFIN TUNA FISH FARMING - World Topics | Facts and Details


    Cod in the Atlantic new England area and Canada collapsed from overfishing. A stop in fishing is growing the population but not to previous levels. It may take awhile.

    Cod Shortage Roils New England - WSJ.com
     
    austingreen likes this.
  15. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    9,467
    3,656
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    Thanks, JMD - I had seen those pens off the N Baja coast, but did not know who's 'jail' it was.
     
    JMD likes this.
  16. JMD

    JMD 2012 Prius 4 Solar Roof

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2012
    3,779
    1,282
    0
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius
    Model:
    Four
    You're welcome
     
  17. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2005
    20,760
    8,591
    54
    Location:
    Montana & Nashville, TN
    Vehicle:
    2018 Chevy Volt
    Model:
    Premium
    With in increase in Iodine129 (ah la Fukashima) arriving on the U.S. western shores, I'm thinking wild fish supplies will likely be on the rise
    :unsure:
    .
     
  18. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2009
    13,629
    4,172
    0
    Location:
    Austin, TX, USA
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    N/A
    Man just when I was getting the flavor for that coal pollution mercury in my fish, I have to change my tastes to radioactive Iodine. :confused:
     
  19. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    9,467
    3,656
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    Any of youse guys with a few hundred$ you don't need can get your own 'ionizing radiation' meter and check the fish or other food.

    Search AWARE and radiation meter and you'll find it. I receive no compensation for commercial announcements.

    Analyzing mercury in food is more complicated but many universities have atomic absorption with graphite furnace and that's the ticket. Go make friendly with some chemist. Just a thought.

    I could get rice analyzed here for arsenic and cadmium (it's been in the news) but ... maybe I just don't want to know. Compared to the average local my rice consumption is very low. Except to the extent that rice is used as carbohydrate in beer manufacture. Hmmm... that may be worth checking.
     
    austingreen likes this.
  20. FL_Prius_Driver

    FL_Prius_Driver Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2007
    4,319
    1,527
    0
    Location:
    Tampa Bay
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    I

    There is another option. Eat lots of seafood and test yourself. This is exactly what I did. With a substantial change in diet to seafood many years ago, the wise one of the castle wondered if mercury ingestion should be a worry. How does one know?

    So I when I was at the Doctor for next routine visit, I asked if I could be tested. She never had that test requested before and really liked the question. Found out that the standard test is a "heavy metals test". It's pretty simple. Pee in a big jug for 24 hours and send it off the lab. It only cost me about $100 if I remember.

    The net result was surprising. Hg was undetectable, but Arsenic was at the high end of the band. Might be time for a second test. Obviously Mercury is not what I'm curious about.