Has anyone read what kind of range Nissan is expecting from the Leaf during the winter? I realize that the car isn't being released in cold weather climates, at least initially anyway, but what kind of range hit could be expected if it's, say, 20F outside?
I will defer to those who know, but I suspect the range will be negatively impacted by cold weather. I have not seen it stated anywhere, but I assume, for one thing, the cabin heater will be electric. One advantage ... there will be almost instant heat (as compaired to heating, and circulating hot water). No need to start the car early and let it warm up before driving off. So much will depend on owners habits ... we have all seen parents waiting outside elementary schools for the children to exit ... waiting with heater running in the winter, and a/c in the summer. The power to run these comforts will not be recovered by regen or braking. In addition, the chemical reaction of a battery is normally impacted. There will be no difference from the Prius (or any other car) in the case where tires lose pressure in cold weather, increase rolling resistence that impacts MPG. Obviously, winter-blend gasoline will not be a factor.
They really have not stated how the tempature affects the battery, but we know it will not be good news. If they sell some in the Northeast, we will have actual data, but I suspect they won't even consider selling them in colder climates on the initial production run. The coldest place one will be will be is Tennesee, where the Nissan battery plant will be, so they will have some data from that area, also Washington State can get fairly cold at times as well, but that is nowhere near as cold as the Northeast, or far North like MN. They have stated their will be a smartphone app to turn the heat or AC on in advance of getting in the car, so you will be able to pre-heat or pre-cool the Leaf while it's still plugged into it's charger.
My ZENN has lead acid batteries and they are clearly affected by the cold. I use battery heaters and this allows me to have almost summer range in the winter. I could not find any information about the possibility of traction battery heaters for the Leaf. Daniel converted his Xebra from lead acid to Lithium Ion (similar, but not identical to the Leaf) and has not noticed nearly as much affect from the cold. Nissan also claims that their battery management system will allow up to 90% safe discharge. This would mean that regular use of the advertised range would not damage the traction battery. All of these things remain to be seen, but do look hopeful.
Interesting. I doubt the lead acid battery behavior has any direct correlation to the Leaf's batteries (other than when it's cold out, neither perform as well). I was more curious as to whether or not there was anyone else out there with the same battery chemistry as the Leaf's, and/or whether or not there is a "theoretical" loss of battery capacity with certain temperatures. I'm hoping that the number isn't like 50% or similar when the temperature is below freezing.
We might want to keep an eye out for the LEAF's success or failure in Sapporo (which is further north than Vladivostok) on Hokkaido. It's a pretty cold place in the winter.
Well you got me. Somewhere I read that the LEAF would be available throughout Japan but I can't verify that by googling. It had something to do with the lower demand for them in Japan (probably due to the higher price)? I will keep on looking until I find it..:tape2:
Both Daniel and I are planning to purchase Leafs with the belief that cold will not seriously affect the driving range. Daniel has two EVs with Lithium Ion batteries and is quite comfortable that cold is not an issue. Here in Eastern Washington, we get snow and ice, but blizzards are not common. As others have said, there is always something to learn with a new product. It is never foolish to wait while others take a chance on the first run of a product. Of course, if everyone waited, there would be nothing to watch.
I have driven my Xebra in 20-degree weather, and as Allan says, with my LiFePO4 batteries there is little difference in range. I have a very powerful after-market heater in the Xebra and it draws about 25 amps on high, and about half that on low. Nominal 72 volts. 72 X 25 = 1.8 kW. But it only takes a few minutes for the car to warm up. Since there is only high-low-off (no thermostat in the Xebra) I turn it to high for maybe 5 minutes, then off, low, off, low, etc. For a longer trip, I probably average about a 10-amp drain. That's 720 watts. Assuming 3 miles per kWh or 0.34 kWh/mile, an added drain of 0.72 kWh per hour would mean that at 60 mph you'd use 20 kWh for traction and less than 1 kWh for heat in an hour of driving. In town at 20 mph overall average, in an hour of driving you'd use 6.8 kWh for traction and the same 1 kWh for heat. So the heater would cut your range by 1/7 at slow speeds (to 85 miles, from 100) and nearly nothing on the freeway, assuming good insulation against wind-related heat loss. Presumably the batteries would be more affected at colder temperatures, and the demand for heat would be greater.
Very interesting Daniel. Are LiFePO4 the same thing as the lithium ion batteries the Leaf has? I'm not terribly familiar with battery chemistries. I guess that it would also help that if the Leaf is plugged in and it's cold outside, you could "prewarm" the cabin before you left. I wonder why they don't put a small gasoline tank in and use that solely for heat. My understanding is that fossil fuel heaters are extremely efficient vs. having to rely on an electrical resistance heater.
LiFePO4 is not the same as the Leaf's batteries, but lithium chemistries should be more alike than any of them are to lead. I do not know if the car will be able to pre-heat from the grid while plugged in. I agree that this would be very desirable. Also battery heaters (for cold weather) would be good. However, I disagree about having a gasoline heater. While it may be theoretically more thermally efficient, it would introduce a stinky and explosive component to the car, as well as the need to stop at gas stations.
I know the Prius is operating differently than a pure EV but I see up to about 25% reduced range with my Hymotion battery in the winter. I would expect about the same amount or less with an EV. I'm sure the Tesla Roadster owners could give you an idea on reduced mileage during winter.
Battery powered Mercedes-Benz Vito passes cold weather endurance test "As the winter test season wraps up in northern Sweden this month, the all-electric Vito has completed its first cold-weather endurance test. The Vito has to go through all of the same testing as any other vehicle in the Mercedes lineup so, as the frozen lakes begin to melt around Arjeplog, the electric Vito will be heading south to the Alps and then on to Spain for high temperature testing. Through the winter, the Vito has apparently been averaging 80 miles on a charge." [Source: Mercedes-Benz] Battery powered Mercedes-Benz Vito passes cold weather endurance test — Autoblog Green
Excellent idea! They'd be the best source of reliable information on this. If there are any in cold weather regions. I know there's one in the Spokane / Coeur d'Alene region, but I don't know who.
25% is a much higher figure than i was expecting for range reduction. in lead acid, it can be more like 30-35%. but i was under the impression that Li was more like 10%. **edit** oh did not see that part about combined mileage. ok, so the 25% drop also accounts for what percentage of the gas mileage drop then?
