Featured Scientists Accidentally Discover Efficient Process to Turn CO2 Into Ethanol

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by Trollbait, Oct 18, 2016.

  1. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Scientists Accidentally Discover Efficient Process to Turn CO2 Into Ethanol

    It still is at the benchtop scale, but could be a big game changer.
     
    #1 Trollbait, Oct 18, 2016
  2. Eastside

    Eastside Member

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    Instant vodka ! ! ! This could change the moonshine industry.

    Hmmm, corn farmers and the existing ethanol industry aren't going to like this.
     
    #2 Eastside, Oct 18, 2016
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  3. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    While graphite and copper are common materials, making them into the require nano-particle matrix for this is expensive.

    For vodka, you would still need to distill it to high purity.
     
    #3 Trollbait, Oct 18, 2016
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  4. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    Do note that this process is not an energy source. It consumes energy, to effectively un-burn alcohol. The energy most still come from some other source, and that cost must equal or exceed the value of the resulting alcohol as a fuel.

    But if it can be used to store surpluss electric energy for use (or as other fuel) later, then great.
     
    #4 fuzzy1, Oct 18, 2016
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  5. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    IIRC, Panasonic is working on a two cell process that is directly solar powered that works with similar principles. The first cell breaks water apart to oxygen and hydrogen by a solar activated catalyst. Then the hydrogen moves to the second cell where a catalyst causes it to react with CO2 to form simple organic compounds; in their case formic acid. I remember the second cell catalyst being composed of copper, and the project was looking into the effect of different alloys and surface treatments for different products and better yields.

    This Oakridge National Lab team is looking at nano particle catalysts for making such organic compounds, many of which are valuable as building blocks for other industrial compounds. Ethanol was a target molecule, but they were expecting that they would need a multiple steps before getting it. The accident was getting high concentrations of it in one step.

    It needs electricity. Any renewable fuel for transportation will require an energy input somewhere. This is early stage work though. Excess renewable electric might not be an issue by the time this gets to market, if it ever proves economically feasible.
     
    #5 Trollbait, Oct 19, 2016
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  6. RCO

    RCO Senior Member

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    Perhaps I'm wrong, but I thought this accidental discovery was a byproduct of some other process. That would mean the energy expenditure would have been utilised by the primary reaction. :confused:
     
    #6 RCO, Oct 19, 2016
  7. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    From the OP article, "The researchers were attempting to find a series of chemical reactions that could turn CO2 into a useful fuel, when they realized the first step in their process managed to do it all by itself."

    This is actually old news for the research group. The paper linked in the article is actually on a control study they did on their carbon nanotube with deposited copper nano particles catalyst in comparison to the copper particles on plain graphite and the nano-tubes alone. Surprise, the high selective yields of ethanol only happened with their combined catalyst, but they still don't know exact what is going on.

    This isn't brand new research. At its core, the process is electrolysis, but the water is saturated with CO2 in the hopes of getting simple organic compounds instead of oxygen and hydrogen. So the research is into the materials and design of the catalyst to improve the selectiveness of the products produced. Getting alot of any one product with little of any other is a big step. Like electrolysis, it isn't energy efficient.

    As a means of storing excess renewable electric, making ethanol, methanol, or methane this way is likely a step up over making hydrogen. In addition to being easier to handle than hydrogen, it takes some carbon out of the atmosphere. Use the process to make a feedstock for something like plastic instead of a fuel, it can be a carbon sink.
     
    #7 Trollbait, Oct 19, 2016
  8. RCO

    RCO Senior Member

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    What he said...

    So, is that bad, good or better?
     
    #8 RCO, Oct 19, 2016
  9. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    If the above quote is true, wow! But I am not immediately optimistic without further confirmation.
     
    #9 wjtracy, Oct 19, 2016
  10. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    depends on how many dollars and kwh it takes to make a gallon of ethanol. The thing that is better is its room temperature, but often we have heat anyway to drive a reaction.
     
    #10 austingreen, Oct 19, 2016
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  11. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Then we have to see how this compares to Audi's reversed hydrogen reformation process for making diesel, and in getting the fuel to cars. Ethanol can be a fine fuel, but it doesn't mix well with the US's existing distribution infrastructure.

    Where this process has the best chance is in storing excess renewable electric for when that production can't meet demand. It likely doesn't take much more energy than electrolysis form hydrogen, but storing ethanol is much easier. It is also easier to move if there is an overstock. Methane would actually be better in terms of working with existing power plants and future fuel cells, though that is one of the products this process can make.
     
    #11 Trollbait, Oct 20, 2016
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  12. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    CO2 conversion is a very interesting topic and I wouldn't mind doing some R&D in that area myself. The fact this is room temp, maybe I could set up a home lab.

    But I am trying to find a polite way to say, taking a development like this, even if true, and scaling it up to commercial production is a multi-million dollar R&D effort taking probably 5-10 years. And most likely the effort would get stalled on the various technical show-stoppers that Mother Nature tends to throw in the path. And even if that works, it may not be economic, and if economic, it may not be preferred to other options, such as electrolysis (to make H2/O2 from spare solar energy).

    The headline states all of these hurdles have already been surmounted and we are ready to go with large scale commercial production. I don't want to dampen enthusiasm, but I suspect they intended to say "they hope" the process can be scaled up and econmical
     
    #12 wjtracy, Oct 20, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2016
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  13. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    #13 Trollbait, Oct 20, 2016
  14. Robert Holt

    Robert Holt Senior Member

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    Since Bob Wilson has shown a Prius will successfully run on quite high concentrations of ethanol mixed with gasoline, we could take any alcohol from a DIY lab setup in the garage and burn it directly in our Prii ! I used to have solar panels on the back roof and can install a new generation of solar cells to help power the reaction. Hmmm. (Mental wheels turning)
     
    #14 Robert Holt, Oct 20, 2016
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  15. RCO

    RCO Senior Member

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    Forgive me sir, but you seem rather negative in your prognosis. For my own part I try to be optimistic and hope those potential problems do not present themselves. No doubt we shall cross those bridges when and IF they materialise.

    I'm still hoping to get my new Prius before I die, so watch this space... :whistle::LOL::D
     
    #15 RCO, Oct 20, 2016
  16. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    Not being negative at all. I like the idea of CO2 conversion.
    There is a misconception that chemical processes behave like Moore's Law for computers...that is to say, gets easier exponentially all the time. Unfort, however, Murphy's Law is still in charge of chemical process scale-up. Not to say we shouldn't try, rather I highly recommend it. Just need to realize the hurdles and investments req'd, if we are to stay the course.
     
    #16 wjtracy, Oct 20, 2016
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  17. RCO

    RCO Senior Member

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    Sorry, my bad!
     
    #17 RCO, Oct 20, 2016
  18. Eastside

    Eastside Member

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    Here's a wind-to-hydrogen project link from 10 years ago, at the Nat'l Renewable Energy Lab: Experimental "Wind to Hydrogen" System Up and Running - News Releases | NREL

    . . . “Intermittent wind power is converted to a stored fuel that can be used anytime, while at the same time offering a totally climate-friendly way to retrieve hydrogen, to power our homes and possibly cars in the future.”

    Progress takes a while.
     
    #18 Eastside, Oct 20, 2016
  19. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    My kinda of scientist:
    [​IMG]

    Bob Wilson
     
    #19 bwilson4web, Oct 20, 2016
  20. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    That's right - hydrogen is popular to the oil industry because it keeps natural gas reformation costs / profits a comin' their way.
    .
     
    #20 hill, Oct 23, 2016
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