Hybrids wane, diesels gain as buyers weigh real-world mpg

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jhinton @ Jul 26 2007, 09:56 AM) [snapback]485369[/snapback]</div>

I agree completely. Work is a half mile from my house. On those days that I don't walk, I don't bother trying to cool the Prius down for a trip that short.

Here's an interesting tidbit: most people have more hearing loss in their left ear than right because of driving around with windows down. If I'm doing any serious traveling, the windows are up and AC is on.

Harry

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(clearview22 @ Jul 26 2007, 09:59 AM) [snapback]485412[/snapback]</div>

Maybe they just expect that you will do a little bit of research yourself. But here, I've done some for you.

The VW Polo Bluemotion is currently available and gets an official 60.3 mpg for EU highway driving. (That is 72 mpg in British units so it is often reported as getting 72 mpg by those that don't know that Imperial gallons are different from American gallons.) The Polo is the size of the 2nd generation VW Golf sold in the U.S. during the 1980's and is considered by VW America to be too small for American tastes. (VW POLO See Below)



The VW Lupo 3L was discontinued in 2005 but got an official 78 mpg for EU highway driving. (3L per 100 km and hence the name 3L). It was the size of the 1980's Ford Festiva and again considered too small for American drivers. (VW LUPO See Below)


There are many others by other manufacturers but you'll have to look them up yourself.

I don't see you driving a urban commute and getting 45 mpg either. The new EPA estimate for my TDI is 35/39/45. In my new mostly suburban driving I have been getting low 40's. In highway driving 50 mpg or better is quite easy to achieve. We bought our TDI when my wife was driving 100 miles round trip to the university 5 days a week. This was on a divided state highway at about 60 mph and she averaged a consistent 50 to 52 mpg per tank with another 20% of our driving being around town.

I have heard about no problems with diesels and short trips. I would say if diesel had issues with short trips then you would not have a 50% diesel market penetration in Europe were people drive mostly shorter trips. BTW, it is common knowledge that VW Dealers know NOTHING about TDI's so I wouldn't take anything they say seriously. My local dealer uses the wrong grade of oil when then service TDI's and recommend that you just change it twice as often.

Diesel pumps are messy because diesel is a larger molecule than gasoline and does not evaporate as quickly as gasoline. This makes for naturally low evaporative emissions, something that Toyota resorted to a bladder in the gas tank to achieve in the Prius.

I'm not sure what you are referring to when you speak of "diesel stains all over the roads".

You live in the Northeast were automobiles compete with homes for the supply of diesel in the winter causing higher prices. However, just because the cost to purchase the fuel is more doesn't mean that you will not save money in the long run. Using EPA numbers my TDI is 69% more fuel efficient than the 2.0 gasoline version. (39 mpg vs 23 mpg combined cycle) In order for me to lose money diesel would have to average for the year $5.09 per gallon when regular gasoline is $3.00. Is it that much more even in the winter? NO, I would guess it might be $0.50 to $0.70 more at very peak demand when everyone is filling their fuel oil tanks to heat their houses.

If you live in the city and drive in the city a hybrid is a great choice for you. An EV would be even better if they were available. What works best for you doesn't work best for everyone though and the economics of diesel make sense even in the Northeast.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(clearview22 @ Jul 26 2007, 10:59 AM) [snapback]485412[/snapback]</div>

First things first - Imperial pints (Britain) are 20 fluid ounces, while ours in the US are 16, thus even with the same 8 pints per gallon, 72mpg in Britain equates to around 58mpg here. That's not much more than I get from my Prius (hence I'm quite happy) though it has to be said that in Britain (and the EU in general) fuel efficient cars have been far more prominent for many, many years than they have been here. As I said elsewhere recently, my first car in 1975 got a little over 60mpg (imperial measure) around town and it was 10 years old when I bought it. With tax breaks on diesel fuel making it notably cheaper than petrol in many parts of Europe, car manufacturers had good reason to develop a wide range of fuel-efficient diesels - VW being only one vendor. The same vehicles never caught on here due to their size and, in no small part, the lack of need to consider fuel efficiency with petrol costs at very low levels until recently (and apart from the oil crisis in the 70s where a sudden upsurge of interest in fuel efficiency came about but where most of the domestic manufacturers here were too slow to capitalize on).

Car manufacturers here have focussed almost entirely on 'big is better' marketing and the economies of low fuel cost. But the absence of excellent and fuel efficient vehicles here, mostly diesel powered, does not mean they don't exist and haven't existed for a long time elsewhere.

 

Thanks for the research jhinton. Road conditions play a major role in fuel economy; here in PA we have more and more traffic traveling on roads that are not made to handle it, stoplights are everywhere, hills are everywhere, traffic is everywhere. You purchased your diesel when your wife was traveling 100miles per day on 2 lane roads at about 60mph, sure sounds like a good environment for a diesel, the driving that you do now sounds very reasonable for a diesel. If a diesel is not allowed to warm up on a regular basis problems with; head gaskets, fuel system, polution control devices are common, winter weather plays a role. There is that legendary VW quality issue to deal with, one couple I know with a 2003 Jetta said, "after two years the car is falling apart around the engine" (gas engine).
I get 45mpg around town and "out in the country" driving, a recent trip to Erie on Turnpike and interstate, netted 47 mpg at around 75mph, from my 2007 Prius.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(clearview22 @ Jul 27 2007, 04:10 AM) [snapback]486006[/snapback]</div>

Yes, my wife's commute to the university was an excellent application for a diesel. My current situation is much less so. I'm currently living in a suburb of Birmingham and we have everything that you described. I'm now down to low 40's in suburban driving. The Prius is averaging in the high 40's.

I do know that VW's have a reputation for poor quality. They have had lots of problems with 4th generation cars specifically the New Beetles and Jetta Sedans. The newer 5th generation cars have been reported as having much improved quality.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(HiLaker @ Jul 27 2007, 03:13 PM) [snapback]486374[/snapback]</div>

It seems like your own government weighed in on this discussion:

 

Interesting discussion. I guess unsurprising for a Prius board people are a bit defensive and feel the need to attack diesel. I thought you might be interested in a (undoubtedly biased) European perspective...

We (my wife and I) run both diesel and petrol (gas) cars, and have a Prius on order. Taxation on cars in the UK is based around CO2 emissions, with a slight loading against diesels to reflect their higher NOx and particulate emissions.

In larger cars (Prius size and above), diesels are hugely popular, particularly as company cars. They cost a bit more to buy, but have big (if it's a company car) tax and running cost savings. A Prius sized diesel powered car easily manages 50MPG (UK gallons) in real world usage.

Smaller cars in the UK are much more skewed to being petrol powered - the price premium of a diesel is more significant on a small cheap car and the petrol powered "superminis" do pretty good MPG for themselves - 60MPG claimed for the smallest city cars. Plus city cars here tend to do much lower mileage so the payback of diesel is not always worth it.

Diesel costs marginally more in the UK than petrol. Diesel used to be significantly cheaper in mainland Europe than petrol, but the price gap is not so big now (IMHO) - but the gap was big enough for long enough to give car manufacturers the incentive to develop diesels to the level they're now at.

FWIW, 10 years ago there was a similar level of resistance to diesel powered cars in the UK as there appears to be in this forum - they were considered slow, noisy and smelly. They're still noisier and smellier than petrol cars, but price for price they are usually now the faster option, and can be nicer to drive (the big fat torque of a turbo diesel makes them quite handy for overtaking).

That said, diesels take longer to warm up, and for our cars at least, our diesel is significantly less economical on short city runs - I much prefer a petrol car for a short winter journey. I'm not convinced of the suitability of diesel for powering a hybrid car - more interesting will be to see what happens as direct injection technology filters through into petrol powered hybrids.

The bottom line is that diesels are popular in Europe because although the cars are little more expensive to buy, they cost a lot less to run (fuel and tax). Hybrids aren't such a big thing here because they cost a lot more to buy, and don't really save a significant amount on fuel costs. The caveat is that hybrids can save a huge amount of tax for company car buyers, which is why we're getting one.

Lest this all comes across as too anti-Prius and pro diesel, I'd like to make it clear that I love the idea of the Prius, and my personal perspective is that diesels have had >10 years of development by all the major European car manufacturers, so for the Prius to even match their economy is impressive. Give hybrids the same investment and development and I'm sure they have potential to be the future (until fuel cell cars are realistic).

 

I grew up in the 70s when diesel Mercedes were pretty common. I always liked the sound of the engine and they seemed to have plenty of power except for starting from a stoplight. I do remember climbing up hills was a little slow though.

My friends parents bought a 1982 Diesel Jetta 4 door sedan. It was a real fun car to drive, we drove that thing everywhere and it was a very comfortable car. But that dashboard would shake rattle and roll when we sat at a stoplight.

I have good memories of my friends mom's 1974 Mercedes 240D. Starting it up, we had to turn the key and then look in the little glow-plug window on the dash until they were lighted up, then start the engine. It was a very comfortable highway car.

I think diesel is a good alternative to gas, but I wonder how much cleaner the latest generation is, and it certainly can't be as clean-burning as the Prius is.

Too bad there aren't more diesel options in the USA, but that might be changing. I read the latest Honda Accord Diesel sold in europe gets 60mpg?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(HiLaker @ Jul 27 2007, 06:46 PM) [snapback]486401[/snapback]</div>

The defination of the Swiss government for "the environmental impact" is not just CO2 output. I am sure they consider NOx, PM, and other exhaust outputs.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(HiLaker @ Jul 27 2007, 06:46 PM) [snapback]486401[/snapback]</div>

Wise rule since diesel has about 15% more energy than gasoline. Therefore, Diesel better use 15% less per kilometer than gas.

Isn't there different emission rule for Diesel than gas? I remember they allow more NOx and PM emission for Diesel. Did the new emission standard (Euro4?) kick in to level off the playing field?

Recent news: UCLA Study Identifies Synergy Between Diesel Particles and Cholesterol in Enhancing Heart Disease

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(usbseawolf2000 @ Aug 1 2007, 04:19 PM) [snapback]488628[/snapback]</div>

Emission requirements for diesel cars in the UK are completely different to petrol (gas). Requirements for both petrol and diesel are tightened year on year (ish).

EU4 diesels have much tighter requirements for particulates (cars seem to have particulate filters to meet EU4) and used to benefit from a small tax advantage over EU3 cars. I *think* you can still buy EU3 and EU4 diesels, and there's no longer a tax advantage to the "cleaner" one. No idea why.