4 gal E85, 5.6 gal E10, 2.5 gal E10

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Technical Discussion' started by bwilson4web, Jan 26, 2013.

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  1. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    So far, calculated E70 is running just fine. I ran a maximum power, 525ft (160m), 8% grade, hill climb at 37F without a problem. Our 2010 Prius topped out at 90 mph and no codes.

    In contrast, our 2003 Prius is running E85 (this time of year E74) and has tossed P0171 four times. Curiously, each was after having parked 'warm' and within 1/4 mile of starting a drive. I haven't done a maximum hill climb, yet, pending getting the Graham miniscanner configured to capture some metrics.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #21 bwilson4web, Feb 21, 2013
  2. WE0H

    WE0H Senior Member

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    I suspect the 3rd Gen is running the Corolla injectors which would be very large for our motor the way it is setup to run in the Prius. Also I believe the look up tables, if that is what they are called, are very wide for these injectors in our ECU software and the reason the computer can adjust for straight E85 without running out of room to adjust so it doesn't go lean. You know what I mean. It has been many years since I worked with tweaked on ECU software and don't remember all the correct terminology :(

    I can do some testing if you don't beat me to it once this snow & the spring rains wash all the road salt away. Could be mid April to mid May for that to happen.

    Mike
     
    #22 WE0H, Feb 21, 2013
  3. WE0H

    WE0H Senior Member

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    Hi Bob,
    What are your thoughts on the use of E85 in the 3rd Gen Prius as far as fuel system compatibility? Any issues you can think of with the stock fuel system? If I understand your post above is you found running straight E85 in the 3rd Gen ran with no issues and no codes set? I know how the car runs on blends and how it runs with a converter. The converter runs rich even set to mid scale on the mixture. Monitoring fuel trims to see the ECU cutting back the mixture to compensate for the converter adding fuel.

    Thanks,
    Mike ;)
     
    #23 WE0H, Feb 22, 2013
  4. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Too soon to tell but early data with E69, suggests it may work. But there are long-term issues that I'm not prepared to report:
    • E85 lubrication effects - the fuel pump is immersed in the tank and to some extent, lubrication comes from the fuel. Gasoline has lubrication properties but ethanol is something different. Without disassembly and analysis of a fuel pump, I am not sure what the long-term effect would be. Fortunately, the ZVW30 pump assembly is easily replaced. Also, a similar concern with the fuel injectors.
    • hoses and seals - I really need to get samples, measure their characteristics, and immerse in the highest ethanol solution, say Everclear, and test the change over time.
    • exhaust temperatures into catalytic converter - one credible report suggests that at high power settings, the oxygenation from ethanol may result in higher exhaust temperatures into the catalytic converter. What we do not have are specifications for the temperature limits or even existing metrics of catalytic inflow, temperatures. We need to understand what happens with E85 because we don't want to 'burn it out.'
    It is important to understand the risks and be prepared to handle the consequences. To be willing to pay tuition in the school of hard knocks.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #24 bwilson4web, Feb 22, 2013
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  5. WE0H

    WE0H Senior Member

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    Sounds like a good long term project ;) I can recall someone that ran it with a converter in their 3rd Gen for quite some time and nothing weird popped up the whole time. More data needed :) An EGT probe before and after the cat will tell some good data.

    Mike
     
    #25 WE0H, Feb 22, 2013
  6. GasSaver1

    GasSaver1 Member

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    I thought the problem with E85 was the effect it has on the rubber components in the engine causing early failure rate. From my understanding this is a problem in general for any car unless the engine has been converted to handle E85 or was built with it in mind initially.
     
    #26 GasSaver1, Feb 22, 2013
  7. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Well finally threw a P0171 code. I had run 5 mi at 50 mph and then 0.75 mi at 35 mph. Using cruise control acceleration, it threw the code. First one.

    I am thing about which way to go but the common thread is partial power, in the 35-45 mph range seems key to throwing the code.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #27 bwilson4web, Feb 23, 2013
  8. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    There are lots of opinions out there but very few who 'look through the telescope.' Certainly material compatibility is important for long-term use but my first interest is combustion characteristics.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #28 bwilson4web, Feb 23, 2013
  9. WE0H

    WE0H Senior Member

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    Bob you mentioned a code set today. Was this in your 1st Gen or the 3rd Gen Prius? I will do some long term soak tests with injectors and their O rings starting this spring. Right now I have some rubber O rings in a sealed jar filled with straight Isopropyl alcohol, the good stuff not the drug store watered down version. The O rings have been in there since last summer and are still just as pliable as they were on day one. The test to begin this spring will be with E85 out of the gas station pump.

    Mike
     
    #29 WE0H, Feb 23, 2013
  10. GasSaver1

    GasSaver1 Member

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    but if by doing this causing you to need the ICE rebuilt at lets say 100k miles whereas others have gone way past 200k without any issues, is this really worth it?

    There has to be a reason why toyota is specifically saying no E85.
    A long time ago I had a 1992 300zx. This car was rated for no ethanol but as 10% is pretty much the least you can find in NY, I had to do it. The common problem for us Z owners were injectors that failed within about 30k miles. The rubber componets just couldnt deal with it.
     
    #30 GasSaver1, Feb 23, 2013
  11. WE0H

    WE0H Senior Member

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    The only rubber on an injector that I know of is the O rings that seal it into the fuel rail and the intake manifold.

    Mike
     
    #31 WE0H, Feb 23, 2013
  12. dbcassidy

    dbcassidy Toyota Hybrid Nation, 8 Million Strong

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    I need my Prius for every day driving, so I don't mess with going above E10. It is stated in the bible - the owners' manual.Plus I do not want to void my extended warranty from putting anything higher than E10.

    My wishes is that E10 would go away. Leave the growing of corn to a more important issue: feeding people.

    DBCassidy
     
    #32 dbcassidy, Feb 23, 2013
  13. GasSaver1

    GasSaver1 Member

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    it was an example-
    But these are not over engineered german cars. When the Japanese say something they typically mean it and the tolerances are usually much smaller.

    Look I am all for messing around but you have to give some warning here because who knows, maybe a year from now some new guy will stumble across this thread and do this without considering a certain risk factor. I am not totally convinced that the gas cap has a big 'No E85' for lack of power only.

    And actually it wasnt the rubber that was failing in the gen 1 300zx injector (1990-1993). What happened was that there was constant 12v power to the injectors even when the car was off. The electrolysis with the ethanol caused the wires in the injector to corrode. The fix was to put in the new style injectors (you had to cut out the plus from the main engine harness and soldcer in the new style plugs) and also to put a relay in to break the constant voltage when the car was off. This didnt totally fix the problem because when you were driving the same process happened but it delayed the process. Again this is just an example of what went wrong there and that was with E10.
     
    #33 GasSaver1, Feb 23, 2013
  14. Former Member 68813

    Former Member 68813 Senior Member

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    #34 Former Member 68813, Feb 23, 2013
  15. WE0H

    WE0H Senior Member

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    They want to sell you gasoline made from oil, not a fuel made from something other than oil.

    Sorry your thread got spoiled Bob :(

    Mike
     
    #35 WE0H, Feb 23, 2013
  16. GasSaver1

    GasSaver1 Member

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    Its not that..... the question is: why does toyota say the prius cannot take E85? Prius uses less fuel, toyota certainly didnt make friends with the oil company with years of hybrids so you would think that if the car could use this then toyota would tell you.

    there are cars that can use >E10, toyota engineers are warning us for some reason I cannot accept it is because toyota wants you to buy more gas
     
    #36 GasSaver1, Feb 23, 2013
  17. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Don't worry:
    It hasn't been spoiled. <grins>

    So my good skeptic friends:
    • Do you have an MPG vs mph chart for E85 (or E74+) ? Until you do, I want to complete my experiments.
    • What is the maximum E99 ratio that does not throw a P0171 code?
    As I pointed out before, I really don't care to do an endurance test with my wife's car. If I did, I would get two tanks from crashed Prius; two sets of fuel lines; and two sets of injectors. I would have one set input to the other tank. When the current tank was dry, I would switch to the other. I would use anhydrous, ethanol, at least 2-3 gallons. The experiment would run until a failure. Are you prepared to do the same or provide evidence of someone else having done the same?

    'Look through the telescope.'

    Bob Wilson
     
    #37 bwilson4web, Feb 23, 2013
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  18. WE0H

    WE0H Senior Member

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    Bob,
    Do you think it is worthwhile to soak some injectors and injector O rings in E85 in a sealed jar or a waste of my time? I don't have a set of 3rd Gen injectors but I do have a set from a 2002 Suzuki Swift. So far my testing of rubber O rings in Isopropyl alcohol has proven the rubber is fine. That is not E85 but it does run damn well in my former gas mower ;) I have a EV mower now :)

    I'll let you know this spring when I fire up my Prius if it is spewing out fuel from the fuel system or if the motor mysteriously melted away in the garage. The tank was nearly full of fuel when I put it away last fall ;)

    Mike
     
    #38 WE0H, Feb 23, 2013
  19. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Hi Mike,
    I'm not too worried about the injectors, 'O' rings, or soft tubing. It is the fuel pump and level sensor I would be more curious about. They are most likely using large amounts of plastic.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #39 bwilson4web, Feb 23, 2013
  20. WE0H

    WE0H Senior Member

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    What kind of plastic can I go out and buy that I can do a soak test on? Aside from finding 3rd Gen components, maybe something else I can find locally? May will be 12 months of component soaking but I suspect the car will start and run fine this spring ;) Haven't seen any puddles of fuel on my garage floor so far [​IMG]

    Mike
     
    #40 WE0H, Feb 23, 2013
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