Making clouds reflect more light

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by tochatihu, Jul 21, 2015.

  1. Andyprius1

    Andyprius1 Senior Member

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    I know, I sorry, just inherent laziness. AND, a suspicion that Science and Scientist really know nothing, but do like to talk about it. When it comes to weather prognostication on a grand scale, we humans are quite inept.
    Incidentally I do very much enjoy ALL of your comments!
     
  2. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    I started this thread to say that people are interested in exploring a plan B. Getting plan A right (holding down CO2 increases to a reasonable level) might be an even better way to go. Another thread perhaps?

    The reason weather and climate are challenging to model comes from the complexity of the system interactions, and we don't have fine-grained data on the important parameters. Modeling 'horsepower' used to be an important third factor, But now computers are so big&fast. The first two persist, however.
     
  3. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Yes and no:
    • yes - math is precise and absolutely knowable
    • no - observations are subject to refinement
      • less so for those that destroy the original sample
    Our discussions are often sharing understanding and refining what we know and that is not a problem.

    Bob Wilson
     
  4. Andyprius1

    Andyprius1 Senior Member

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    Sharing is definitely productive. So long as radical predictions are not involved. I am referring to Climate change in particular. Our meteorologist can look out to the Pacific and predict a High or a Low pressure area coming in, but they are also wrong sometimes and the weather pattern moves up toward Canada. We cannot predict the Jet stream, a large influencer of weather patterns, it is often radical in its swings, going from Canada to Mexico and back up close to Canada. Weather can be observed, studied but no predictions or forecast can be made on a large scale. This whole Global warming is mist and just fodder for Al Gores notoriety.
     
  5. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    No problem as we use "logical" predictions from direct observations and solid math. For example, sea level:
    [​IMG]
    The 'red' line comes from the Berkeley Earth data and the blue line from satellite observations of sea level. I've use a Gaussian filter to find the embedded minimum and maximums in the data. A Gaussian filter is a type of weight average compared to a straight-line average.

    An ordinary or straight-line average is calculated by adding all of the data observations and dividing by the number of samples. For example:
    data avg(3) Gauss(3)
    1 8
    2 9 9.0 9.0
    3 10 9.3 9.5
    4 9 9.7 9.5
    5 10 8.3 8.8
    6 6 6.7 6.5
    7 4 5.7 5.3
    8 7 6.3 6.5
    9 8 8.0 8.0
    10 9 9.0 9.0
    11 10

    Notice what happens when there is a dip in the data, the "4". The average of three points, 5.7, suppresses the dip whereas the Gaussian filter shows 5.3, a significant difference. The straight line average 'hides' the dip in the middle of the data:
    • avg = (n1 + n2 + n3) / 3
    • Gaussian = ( (.25*n1) + (.5*n2) + (.25*n3) )
    This keeps the neighbors on either side from suppressing the interesting dips and peaks in the data.

    Generating the coefficients for a Gaussian filter is a little more involved. As the number of elements under the Gaussian curve increases, the coefficients become harder to calculate. We can go over that if you are interested.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #25 bwilson4web, Jul 27, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2015
  6. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Climate is not weather though.
    Weather is day to day prediction, and climate is the trends over years. Weather will predict the next week will be hot, humid, with a chance for a thunderstorm. Climate says summers will tend to be warmer, but drier than springs.
     
  7. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    They are two sides of the same coin:
    [​IMG]
    • Climate - a probability
    • Weather - current observations
    Weather forecasting is something in between. As weather forecasting gets better, it uses similar data to what climate scientists are using.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #27 bwilson4web, Jul 27, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2015
  8. mojo

    mojo Senior Member

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    Bob you are delusional.The climate models have been wrong for the past 18 years.

    CMIP5-global-LT-vs-UAH-and-RSS.png
     
  9. Andyprius1

    Andyprius1 Senior Member

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    It would be perfect if everything finally boiled down to mathematical averages. Certain areas are highly non-predictive: weather, stock market, agricultural production in particular and almost any human endeavor. Only a few parameters are constant, an ounce of gold, probably most other elements on Earth, sub atomic particles are probably pretty consistent in mass and weight but even here are variations caused by outside influences: Air pressure, temperature, velocity of surrounding electrons. How much influence does the Sun have, the Moon? What is Ether? Does it really exist. I see Scientist are reevaluating and using the term Ether again, after many years of Poopah. Scientist still do not understand all the properties of water! But I still prefer Wilson over Gore.
     
  10. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Graph @27 not attributed, but html sniffing suggests a WUWT source. Perfectly fine by me, and there are other sources of 'spaghetti' as well.

    Stefan Rahmstorf, Grant Foster and Anny Cazenave (2012) Comparing climate projections to observations up to 2011. Environ. Res. Lett. 7, 044035 doi:10.1088/1748-9326/7/4/044035

    Then a figure from IPCC AR5 WG1 Ch 11

    First asserts 'bullseye', second has instrumental T now at the bottom of the envelope. Among these three graphs, everybody is sure to find something to like. After 2015, and especially if 2016 is a ++El Nino, we’ll probably now even more.


    Rahmsdorf 2015 clim model test.jpg

    IPCC AR5 WG1 Ch 11 CO2 model test compress.jpg
     
  11. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Andtprius1, which Wilson?
     
  12. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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