OK, this is not related to a car at all, but at least there are some environmental concerns as far as carbon footprint goes. Our home heating (and hot water) is run by an old oil boiler system. It is in dire need of repair/replacement. I had boiler failure this morning and the plumber/HVAC serviceman is on his way now. I don't know what is wrong with it yet, and if it is repairable or not. I recently had a contractor come in to look at our aging oil boiler and had him run numbers for a propane boiler conversion. A few years ago, I also had a different contractor run the number for replacing the current oil boiler with a newer much more efficient oil boiler. The cost turns out to be very similar. There are PROS and CONS of both. If the comparison is Oil vs Natual gas, then natural gas is almost always a better choice, but in our case, there is no natural gas line in our community. Also, if the comparison is Oil (or gas) vs Heat pump, then a heat pump definitely has less carbon footprint. But in our climate, air sourced heat pump is not an adequate heat source thus only good for shoulder seasons and I will be needing a supplemental heat source in winter. Not having an air duct means there is really no way to convert our current system with a central heat pump system either. The cost of a mini-split heat pump for each room will likely be prohibitively expensive. Here are some pros and cons of propane and oil heating systems, I found in my research. Is there anything else to consider? Have anyone done boiler replacement and can offer suggestions/recommendations to consider before deciding which way to go? Advantages of Propane more environmentally friendly than heating oil Propane equipment runs more efficiently than heating oil equipment tankless instant hot water frees up a need for an indirect hot water tank Propane gas heats quickly Because propane burns clean, propane heating equipment requires less maintenance and last longer than heating oil-based equipment Propane doesn’t contaminate groundwater or soil if it leaks Propane gas boilers and furnaces can be vented through regular PVC pipe through the roof or a wall rather than through a traditional chimney Propane can also be used to power other appliances such as ranges and water heaters – all from the same fuel source Disadvantages of Propane The cost of propane is more expensive per gallon than heating oil. In our area, this has been always true. the price of propane tends to be more volatile. Propane produces fewer BTUs per gallon than oil heating Propane-burning equipment often costs more to purchase than heating oil-based systems Propane is combustible in the air, so precautions are needed to operate the equipment safely unsightly propane tanks placed outside the tank must be rented for ongoing cost or purchased for additional initial cost Advantages of Oil heating oil has a higher BTU output per gallon and is used up more slowly than propane; this means I will pay less to heat our house with heating oil. The cost of heating oil is less expensive per gallon than propane. In our area, this is always true. Oil is thought to be safer than gas because it is not combustible in the air and does not create carbon monoxide fumes. Equipment generally costs less to purchase oil furnaces have progressed, they have become cleaner and quieter and very efficient oil also heats quickly, but it is more slowly than propane. Disadvantages of Oil Controlling heat output is more difficult with oil than it is with propane. oil boiler is usually less energy efficient than that of propane counterparts Heating oil tanks – especially older steel-lined ones – are susceptible to leaks, which can be extremely costly to clean up – an expense that is often not covered by home owner’s insurance needs an indirect hot water tank When burned, heating oil produces much more carbon dioxide gas than propane oil has more particulates than propane, requiring more maintenance than a propane one. Oil furnaces need to be cleaned more frequently than propane furnaces – a service you pay for In most homes that are heated by oil, other appliances (such as water heaters, ranges, and clothes dryers) are run by electricity, which is not as efficient as propane.
we're on the oil/propane merry go round. when we bought the house in 2004, the inspector said the 30 year old boiler was great. of course, it completely failed that year. we had enough time to explore the options. i only looked at cost. propane was (and is) very expensive, i decided on a new high efficiency oil fired kinetic energy boiler with separate hot water tank and heat exchanger. and i put in a propane dryer and fireplace, with 2 100g tanks. i was going to put in a propane stove, but after using the existing electric one for a couple years, mrs b who formerly said she would never cook on an electric stove turned out to love it, and we got a new one with the kitchen remodel. my neighbor switched his whole house from oil to propane, with a 2500g tank buried in the ground. i asked him if the propane was expensive, and he claims he is in some new hampshire propane consortium, and it is cheaper than oil. all things being equal, i prefer gas, but now they are starting to ban ng in europe due to environmental reasons, so who knows?
Propane. It's scalable - meaning you can use it to run other appliances including backup generators and smaller vent-less heaters, it will probably outlast oil economically, it's "probably" cleaner end to end, and there are mitigations for the unsightly tank, which unless you're elderly should be purchased rather than leased and either buried or landscaped. If nothing else, you're using pre-wildly inflated bucks to buy a system that is a little less 'future resistant' and you (or your heirs) will realize a net increase in your home value. In N.E. "actual" mileage WILL vary, but in the South it's a complete no-brainer. I know of approximately zero houses below the Volunteer State that are oil-heated. Growing up in my beloved home state of Indiana, we received a "hippie loan" with some dot.gov kickbacks (same crisis, different name) during the 70's to replace our oil-fired dinosaur heater with a gas-fired boiler, and our home heating cost was halved. Some thought was given to putting some of those old "Jimmy Carter" style solar collectors on the house but those thoughts died of loneliness when......ah......'cooler heads' prevailed. Fortunately, solar has turned out to have a....ah....'brighter' future. Of course that was then and this is now.
How is the hot water used for heat in your system? Heat pumps are good for some radiant hydronic heating, but the bulk of the market can't address the higher temperatures needed to retrofit hot water radiator systems. Theoretically, the R744 (CO2) systems could do so, but the only one I know about in the U.S. market is the SanCO2 line (formerly Sanden), and its materials are showing only domestic hot water (DHW), not space heating. Long ago the Sanden products had the very highest efficiency water heaters available, but at high cost. Now the others using R410A have matched their efficiency for typical DHW uses in most climates, at much lower cost. But the R744s are still unmatched for low outdoor temperatures (-20 to -25F) and high delivery temperatures (175F), so still fit a significant niche. I thought I had previously seen them shown in space heating applications, but the U.S. website doesn't seem to show it right now. Their current product appears to have an upper capacity of 15,400 BTU/hr, not enough for most home heating needs without multiple units. Do note that that only the indoor air handler needs to be replicated for each substantial room. Various outdoor units can handle up to 5 indoor units. Still expensive ... My house has a single mini-split in the largest living area, and 'leakage' to the rest of the house is sufficient during the shoulder season. I'm now looking to add a second, in the master bedroom, both to replace the electric heat needed mid-season, and to provide summer cooling. But after our record-smashing heat wave this past summer, lots of other people have the same idea, so local installers are swamped, on top of the pandemic supply chain issues.
Thanks for chiming in on this topic. The HVAC guy came and spent ~3 hours and replaced the circulator on our oil boiler. It is now working again. At least this time, it was repairable at a relatively low cost. But I just don't know how long more this boiler continues to serve us. We had a 118-gallon propane tank that had been connected to two heaters. One direct vented space heater unit for a room that has no central heating connection, another one is for the direct vented propane fireplace as an additional heat source in our den. But we did not use either of those heaters and eventually, disconnected them. The propane tank which was rental from the gas company had been removed and returned to them a long time ago. We still have those heaters in place, so if we get the propane tank again, it can be reconnected. We also have an old wood-burning stove in our family room, which we do use to supplement our heating. But I am getting too old to go to back-woods and cut logs for the stove. I thought about replacing it with a pellet stove, but that too involves a lot of hard work (though not as much as felling a tree and cutting logs), and have a bigger problem of storage of bagged pellets. So, we never replaced the good old Lopi wood-burning stove. Even if we updated the wood-burning stove and two propane heaters, we still need a central heating system for the rest of the house and for hot water. As much as I like the idea of a cleaner-burning propane boiler system, conversion seems to be more of work and costs. For a quick fix, replacing it with a new much more efficient oil boiler system may be the most cost-effective and easiest for our situation.
It should be possible to convert propane to natural gas with a few part swaps, if you ever get a line to your neighborhood.. My understanding is that propane units are just NG ones that have been converted.
Come to North East, you will still find plenty of houses heated by heating oil. I can't remember the number in my state, but it is more than 50% of houses for sure. And after the heating oil is not likely to be propane or natural gas nor electricity, but is wood (either cord of firewood or wood pellets). Here is the data from EIA.gov. 86% of all residential heating oil consumed in the US in 2019 is in the Northeast. When I had the contractor run numbers on the mini-split heat pump, he also did the estimate for a separate heat pump water heater unit. The biggest problem we encounter was that there was not enough space to place the unit in our small boiler room. Major remodeling was needed to accommodate the unit. And that only addressed the DHW, not the central heating. Did not look into much further to see if they are applicable to conversion to baseboard type hot water radiator heaters. Yes, that is something I am planning to consider adding some time in the future. Even though it will not cover the entire house, it will heat and COOL the space where we spend most of our waking hours. Still, this does not solve the problem of an aging oil boiler that is serving as both a central heating unit and as a DHW boiler.
Haha... Not likely to happen in my lifetime or more like NEVER. NG lines for maybe in the center of the bigger cities, but not in the rural communities anyway.
Never know. Maybe the local farms will start a biomethane co-op. I had started looking into propane until I learned how cheap it was getting a NG hook up was here. I'd avoid oil to just end the need for annual filter changes, and cleaning. A dirty business if you DIY, There is also the need of a pump for move the oil and burn it. But its fuel costs will likely be cheaper. What is your electric grid mix, and will you need to replace, potential propane, appliances in the future? A propane stove or dryer could mean lower carbon emissions.
Having a source of methane is one thing, but running the underground gas pipes to each house in a rural community is an entirely different cost level. Or, does Biden's Infrastructure bill include costs earmarked for such spending? BTW, I have completely opposite experience with NG conversion on our previous house in the Boston area residence. Our house was 100% heated by electric-resistant baseboard heaters. As crazy as it sounds, now I think of it, we had no idea how expensive to heat the house at the time we purchased the house, that is until after the first winter. We thought about NG central heating system conversion. But as it turned out we were responsible for the cost of bringing in the gas line to the house from the gas main on the street. We lived at an end of a private cul-de-sac, and the cost of bringing in the line was well over $10K. And conversion to retrofit air ducts and installing the furnace was double that. Needless to say, we did not do the conversion. Spent a lot of money on electricity and firewoods. Our grid mix is ~80% renewable, although it counts biomass so it is not carbon-free at all. However, I am 100% solar on our household electricity consumption at source (not in the grid mix as you know) from a community solar farm. Converting to a gas range and dryer probably won't reduce our carbon emissions.
Very interesting thread. just within the last year I learned: methane and natural gas are one and the same; I’ve got that right?
My understanding is that NG contains some other gaseous substances, but I am not sure if that mixture is a whole lot different from the methane gas mixture produced by cow pasture.
yeah, idk if the gas companies are running new lines anywhere around here. they are too busy trying to replace old ones before the next massive explosion. we have seriously old pipes and millions of leaks in new england, and probably the whole northeast
I switched back in 2013. The Installing the main to the house cost me just $110. However, I had a reasonable period of time to install a gas boiler and water heater. If I hadn't done that for some reason, I would have owed something like $4000 for the15 feet of line and house main. Natural gas is mostly methane. So if any bio- or e-methane comes online, there is no need for upgrading infrastructure beyond the usual maintenance. They are also cleaner than NG with being mostly sulfur free beyond the odorant used.
Digging deeper, I did find a bit of SanCO2 / Sanden material promoting it for combined DHW & building heating. But it is mentioned only for very low heating demands: passive or near-passive houses, and high-performance, multi-family buildings. The pictured example is of a multifamily installation in a mild climate. So people retrofitting in legacy homes in IECC climate zone 6 or 7 (simple or detailed maps) can fuhgeddaboudit. Outside the U.S., R744 heat pump water heaters from numerous manufacturers appear common in Japan, Australia, and parts of Europe. And some industrial and commercial equipment is rated to significantly higher output temperatures, up to 120 C (248 F).
I recall a shower in Holland (about 50 years back...), you could see into the mechanism, see a jet of water surrounded by maybe 3 flames, probably natural gas.
