Thank you Americans

great post, alberto.

it's always nice to see the the opinion of someone from another part of the world- so thank you. i assure you that many of us here in the states feel the same way. we feel a sense of renewed hope upon the recent election results- hoping for some positive change rather than for the same old mess to continue. let us all hope together.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Nov 10 2006, 10:53 AM) [snapback]346946[/snapback]</div>

I think you're going a bit overboard there. I think PA is just tired of peole yelling at each other when nobody is willing to listen and learn, as too often happens on the political rants here.

We've argued these points before, but who has changed their mind or came to new conclusions?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Nov 10 2006, 11:53 AM) [snapback]346946[/snapback]</div>

Yeah, how dare he be slightly arrogant? That's your job.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PA @ Nov 10 2006, 08:11 AM) [snapback]346912[/snapback]</div>

That's quite right Alberto. Heaven forbid if we were to have a different POV (point of view) from someone else. We don't allow that sort of thing over here.

Wildkow

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Alnilam @ Nov 10 2006, 12:04 PM) [snapback]346956[/snapback]</div>

My grandparents moved here from Europe because the Europeans in thier infinate wisdom and using all their culture and intelligence started throwing their brothers, sisters, relatives into ovens and gas chambers - while the rest of Europe watched and remained silent. So you will have to excuse me if I do not worship at the alter of the "old world". Somehow my view of Europe has been jaundiced by other European actions or inactions like watching recent genocides of bosnia, kosavo, rowanda - the recent food for oil scandal - the rise of anti-Semetism in France and Germany (amongst other European countries)...

I am not going to go to that special place of "friendship" - something I though America had established with Europe after sacrificing hundreds of thousands of our soldiers, trillions of our dollars, not to mention the personal investments over the past CENTURY. I guess in Europe that friendship is a fickle thing - guessing that from how my family members resided in Europe and were "good Europeans" for centuries prior to becoming a target/liability/subhuman -- funny how all those Europeans stood side by side with them the same way the European countries stood side by side with America....

 

Again, Alberto, I'm soooooo sorry.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(JackDodge @ Nov 10 2006, 01:17 PM) [snapback]347014[/snapback]</div>

Got me :lol:



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dragonfly @ Nov 10 2006, 01:27 PM) [snapback]347025[/snapback]</div>

Sorry about what? European behavior/history/prejudices/lack of principles/genocide/mass murder/... or do you give them a pass on all that. Would not that be ironic - you probably would not give President Bush a "pass" on anything and you forgive and forget the tens of millions of people who were murdered or slaughtered by Europeans - just in the past century - mind you I am not going back to the crusades, etc... - huh?

You curry their favor in spite of current and past european behavior. You put them on a podium of high culture, intelligence, sensitivity in spite of their RECENT past and in some cases present behavior.

What makes them [Europeans] so great in your opinion - as spokesperson for the "majority" of those here on PriusChat?

Heck - Mousallini (sp) was a real guy to worship, no? The Italians if I remember correctly fought WITH the Nazi's? Where was their mea culpa - or they get a pass too from you? What makes them so high and mighty? I dont see them going to help the people in Darfur. Where were they when Saddam was killing hundreds of thousands of his citizens? Bosnia?

Honestly, don't be sorry for me. Be sorry for Europe and what they have wrought on mankind over the centuries.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Nov 10 2006, 10:52 AM) [snapback]347047[/snapback]</div>

Yeah, Alberto.

You got him and we do too.

Mussolini was killed by his own people and left to hang in a Milan square as an example.

Hatred is an all-consuming passion. It freezes one from ever moving on, as you can see. There are very few whom such people do not hate. They wake up in the morning thinking the Sun is too bright. They can see no advantage to starting friendships, even with those, like yourself, who had nothing to do with their grievances. Visiting the sins of the fathers on their sons is a favorite pastime.

So much for hands across the ocean.

And the beat goes on.......

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Nov 10 2006, 07:46 AM) [snapback]346899[/snapback]</div>

Or at least it represents that minority of those voters not illegally excluded from the polls whose votes, by the vagaries of the anti-democratic electoral college system managed to garner a majority of that pleistocene body after the Republican-packed Supreme Court stepped in to stop the recounts.

Democratic? Or just cratic?

 

P.S. Isn't it interesting how people like Berman will rail without end against Europeans for crimes committed by their fathers, but if someone mentions the genocidal past of America, they'll insist that we forget the past.

And, friend Berman, may I remind you that when "Saddam was killing hundreds of thousands of his citizens" America was giving him the weapons, and the green light, to do so. Where were you?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Nov 10 2006, 02:36 PM) [snapback]347073[/snapback]</div>

Still interested in the genocides America is guilty of.
Start with the genocides we did 1950 - present, then
list them from 1900-1949, and to make it easier,
list them from 1800-1899, and lastly
1776 - 1799.
And if you can give me the body counts. Also any names of concentration camps would be helpful.


And no matter how you want to rewrite history - you will not change it.

And I was the guy cheering when the Israeli's took out Saddams nuclear reactor - how did you feel about that one, sad or happy??

And crimes by our fathers - well my father is a pretty clean guy thanks - he didn't throw anyone in a gas chamber, help round up his neighbors, etc. how many europeans can say that??????

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Nov 10 2006, 12:24 PM) [snapback]347020[/snapback]</div>

You have a unique view of history. If it was consistent with the facts, it would certainly change that view. America turned away many Jews before and during WWII, despite evidence of severe persecution. Europe was embroiled in the war for years, pushed Germany back hundreds of miles from their peak expansion before America ever got off their butts and joined in, and only because Japan sucker-punched us. Anti-Semitism is as strong in the U.S. as it is Europe today (don't you know, they're behind the Supreme Court nominations, JFK's assassination and the U.S. banking system??? At least that's what various people have told me at one time or another.)

I'm not saying I'm pro-Europe and anti-U.S. Just that we've both had strong points and bad points and a truly honest accounting will take in both aspects. But lately we've been on a slide towards a police state, which is going against everything I thought America stood for. The U.S. policy has also turned a blind eye towards the environment and it's economic effects and taxes our children will pay to compensate for unfunded tax cuts today. And of course the true consequences of the whole war in Iraq. That's what scares me about the last few years. I want to see America stay strong, and this path we've been on recently isn't the right one. The Democrat party isn't the best solution, but it's the only available one to counter the recent slide in American values and priorities.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(nerfer @ Nov 10 2006, 03:11 PM) [snapback]347100[/snapback]</div>

Where was I wrong? America did turn away many Jews and there is a school of thought that FDR was an anti-Semite (he could have and was asked to bomb the camps and the RR tracks leading to them). Your perspecitve of WWII history is unique and you should reference your points of view.

Yes there is anti-Semetism in the US of A. I have yet to see Jews be forced to wear yellow Stars of David on their clothing, be thrown in ovens or gas chambers or be restricted in any way (save for affirmative action but we are not alone there) - some trademark European treatment styles of Jews. I also know that there are 13 Jewish Senators in the Senate as of this January and 30 in the Congress - this to me is a small difference between here and there.

The bad points of europe are so massive and overwhelming that whatever wrongs America has done do not come close in comparison.

Your political views should not be intertwined with reality or facts. Europe has a long and storied history of genocide, mass murder, elitism, lack of intelligent behavior,etc etc that is unparalleled. And anti-Semetism is sooo much more prevalent in europe than here it is not even close.

Shalom

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Nov 10 2006, 11:55 AM) [snapback]347091[/snapback]</div>

23,478,746 (I'm just guessing here, but I think I'm close. I included the Danes, of course. Schindler thought well of them. But, then, he was European too.)

You prove my point precisely. Keep hating the sons! This is what is keeping the tribal wars of the mid-east fueled today. You kill somebody in my family, I get to knock off one of yours. As Édith Piaf sang, "Rien de rien de rien...."

The future is built on hope, not recriminations. If a man sticks out his hand, shake it, don't spit in it. I'm sure that is in the Torah or Midrash in some form.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Nov 10 2006, 12:26 PM) [snapback]347117[/snapback]</div>

If that is the standard to measure anti-Semitism, you might as well take into consideration that Great Britain has 59 Jewish members of parliament, including 18 in the House of Commons and 41 in the House of Lords, France and Ukraine each has 18 Jewish legislators, Russia has 13 and Hungary has 10.

Haaretz - Number of Jewish lawmakers worldwide reaches record high

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Alnilam @ Nov 10 2006, 03:34 PM) [snapback]347125[/snapback]</div>

I do not hate "their sons" - but I am conscience of the long and storied history of Europe. And there are good Europeans. I just dont want to place any of my trust in them - they have not earned it.

And I agree with you about building the future based on hope. I am, however, not placing Europe/Europeans on any podium or in a position of judging me or my country - they have not earned that either.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Nov 10 2006, 05:09 PM) [snapback]347148[/snapback]</div>

Didn't the British Parliment have a jewish prime minister almost 150 years ago?

Yeah, they sure did... http://www.britannia.com/bios/disraeli.html

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Nov 10 2006, 01:12 PM) [snapback]347149[/snapback]</div>

Benjamin Disraeli is not the best example. He was of Jewish parentage, but the family converted to Christianity and he was baptized in the Church of England at an early age.

Wikipedia®

France, though, had three Jewish Prime Ministers, most recently Pierre Mendès-France in the 50's, as well as two more recent premiers who had Jewish fathers, Michel Debré (1959-1962) and Laurent Fabius (1984-1986).

Wikipedia®

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IsrAmeriPrius @ Nov 10 2006, 04:52 PM) [snapback]347163[/snapback]</div>

Since we have strayed so far from this original intent of this post, could you please tell me the % of Nobel Prize winners who are Jewish?

And, BTW, don't forget how many Jewish Prime Ministers Israel has had :lol:

Shabbat Shalom

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Nov, 02:01 PM) [snapback]347047[/snapback]</div>

Since you ask, I'm sorry for people who choose to use past inequities as an excuse for present absurdity. For people who continue to point back 10s or 100s or 1000s of years to the persecutions they and their families have endured. For people who can't let go of the past and instead use it as justification for imposing their will on the rest of the world. For people who just don't get it. For people who think their more-persecuted-than-thou background gives them a pass for their behavior. Why do the Israelis have a claim to the Holy Land? Because that's where their families came from, before they were forced out. Why do the Palestinians have a claim to the same land? Same reason. Keep going back through history, and it goes back and forth. Why can't they all live there together? Because none of them can let go of the past. If we don't let go of our pasts we can never move forward; we can never get along. You can make up any justification to do harm on your neighbor. If you choose to. You can also get along with him. If you choose to. In the eye-for-an-eye look-what-your-family-did-to-mine mindset, I wouldn't blame the American Indians if they came into our cities and torched them. I wouldn't blame the Black communities if they captured and indentured whomever they pleased. I could keep going - the analogy applies to probably every sect or race or creed or sexual orientation or nose size on the planet. Yet we all make the choice to live together, as a community. It's part of what defines us as "Americans".

Why do the Dems and Reps constantly fight about their differences? Because they choose to. We have just arisen from a long nightmare. It's time to let go of the past and work together for the common good. It's time to find the middle ground.

I'm sorry that not everyone agrees.