Trying to make a logical argument with non believers - Frustrating at times

What are you taking for a similar risk as the automatic transmission on the Civic? What numbers are you using?

 

I think we all understand that. There's a simple calculation to do:
0) Parameters: Gasoline cost/gal; Prius mpg; warranty miles on battery; replacement battery cost
1) Calculate Prius gasoline cost per mile
2) Calculate Battery cost per mile: replacement cost/warranty miles. Note: it's a pessimistic estimate
3) Add (1) and (2) to get total cost per mile
4) Divide Gas/gal by total (3) to get conventional equivalent mpg

My Gen 3 (2010 II), in central Maine:
0) 2012 gas average price $3.682; 2012 mpg 52.38; warranty miles 150k (10yr/150kmi warranty, I drive 18k/yr); worst case $3,500 battery replacement
1) Prius gas/mi = $3.682/52.38 = $0.0703/mi
2) Prius batt/mi = $3500/150000 = $0.02 1/3/mi
3) Prius total/mi = $0.0936/mi
4) Equivalent mpg = ($3.682/gal)/($0.0936/mi) = 39.33mpg

So, it works for me. Others should plug in their own numbers.

Even if it comes out ahead for others, they do need to bear in mind potential repair costs. There's expectation and then there's the potential for bad luck. Bad luck in a Prius can cost $5k, more than single failures in a conventional car. So, I'd advise not to buy an older used Prius if you can't borrow an additional $5k, and then to start saving that buffer so they can.

 

I think the Civic is a brilliant car, but your argument is full of holes and errors.

1. The Prius does not have an alternator
2. The Prius does not have a starter
3. The (newer) Prius do no have belts. My '04 Prius belt replacement at 120k miles cost $12.
4. The Prius rarely if ever needs brake maintenance
5. The Civic has a much more complicated (read: higher failure rate) transmission than the Prius

On to $ games ...
According to fuel economy.gov, a 2007 Civic combined fuel economy is 29 mpg and the 2007 Prius is 46 mpg. Using $3.5/gallon, the Civic costs 12.069 cents a mile and the Prius costs 7.6087 cents a mile, so the Prius saves 4.4603 cents a mile on fuel. A traction battery cost is recouped in 350000/4.4603 = 78,470 miles of fuel savings.

The Prius already beats the Civic handily, even before we consider the possibility of future fuel price increases.

 

Well reasoned.

It mirrors my opinion that the only conventional car that might be as inexpensive as a Prius over the car's lifetime is one that is used almost exclusively on the highway.

The basic problem with the Prius ignorantii is that they want to be paid to pollute less. Good luck to all those trying to fix stupid.

 

My car went in for the steering shaft recall last month and the service inspection that likes to sell you everything when you don't need it says that I have 70% brakes left. That was at 106K miles roughly. But from a pure physics standpoint, as long as you travel above 7mph (the lower cutoff for regenerative braking) they will always last longer since there are 2 braking sources. Even if regen only brakes 1% of the time, it is still longer. But the reality is that regenerative braking brakes most of the time and friction only brakes when you panic, when the traction battery will not accept more energy, and/or you are traveling below the threshold.

Average, no. It is proven not to. If you drive 100% highway or are a light foot then sure. But with the Prius, driving like average, they will last much longer than the average brake pad life of any other car. And considering how heavy the Prius is, that is quite the feat.

Because it doesn't fail... Replacement quotes over the years on this forum have shown $3500 to $4000 is closer to the repair cost. And almost all of them were misdiagnosed with the exception of about 10-15 total throughout all the internet groups and messageboards. And of those, Toyota covered partial or all of the cost, even outside of warranty.


This isn't a matter of "if they truly last longer"... It does. It is that plain and simple. And it is because the "transmission" is nothing like the Honda or any other transmission. There are no clutches, no torque converter, no gears shifting, grinding, no gears moving in and out of position, and better yet the smoothness of the electric motors and the PSD reduces the overall mechanical vibrations. Heat is the biggest sign of waste and problems and the Prius planetary gearset doesn't require its own coolant loop or anything. You will die before the PSD does.

Yes 2 hours. The majority of the time is actually popping off the interior trim pieces. You then slide out and lift up the big orange interlock connector, heave out the old battery and send back to Toyota for free recycling, put in the new battery, push down the lever, slide it in to click, and put the trim pieces back. If you know what you are doing, the actual process takes about 2 minutes. The trim pieces take the most time because you don't want to scratch or ding them.

If you are using your civic hybrid as a comparison, know that Honda's IMA system still uses a traditional gearbox and is basically a conventional civic with a small electric motor bolted into the belts. We had one too, it was a piece of crap compared to the Prius. The battery started failing early on it as well because Honda overworks the traction battery to get better mileage at the expense of battery life longevity.

They fly the packs in from Japan generally because they are not a stocked item. Why stock something that almost nobody needs? That could take a day or two. But the car isn't dead in the mean time. Just sluggish.

On average, the Prius will cost less to maintain. Cost to purchase almost always will be higher (except for loaded civic vs. base Prius). On average the Prius will cost less to run, cost less to insure, and so on and so on. As i have mentioned other places, just having the Prius saves me 20% on my insurance. Not just the Prius' insurance, but for all 5 vehicles and the house. That's almost $1680 a year for doing nothing other than sitting in my driveway. If the car was completely undrivable, and all I did was insure it, I would save $1680 a year.

 

I understood your post completely. My point is “You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink”. And, “Don’t worry be happy”.
Enjoy your car

 

Not quite: it's obviously cheaper to fuel, but the additonal cost of the battery depends on how many miles it lasts. I should get my full warrantied 150,000 miles, but someone driving 5,000 miles in a non-CARB state might only get 40,000 warrantied miles in their 8 years and that would mean a very high per-mile cost (8.75c/mi using my $3,500 replacement cost). Unless gas prices rise a lot HEVs are not an economic choice for low-mileage drivers.

 

And "Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig."

 

So it looks like the holes in my logic is that I don't understand how reliable and robust the Prius is. The Prius transmission or transaxle (whatever you want to call it) never fails. The battery never fails except when it does, it is cheap to repair. Okay, since that is all true, I am wrong. That's my only argument and since it is in error, you guys are correct.

And Sage Brush, don't forget the cost of the car. Base 2007 Prius costs some $6k north of a base Civic. I'm sure you will have problems with the equipment differences, so it could amount to nothing.

Thanks. Learned something new. I just went out to the car with a flashlight. Indeed, I could not find any belts.

Anyway, this line is well said:

Quite a bit of kool-aid drinking here.

 

There are numerous examples of people well past 100K miles on their original brakes on their Priuses here.

Lifespan/Operating costs - Prius Wiki has many examples of long lasting Priuses. Hybrids prove very reliable | CTV British Columbia News mentions the long lasting brakes as well. Do take a look at the maintenance histories of Priuses at Advanced Vehicle Testing Activity - Hybrid Electric Vehicles.

Belts went away starting w/the 2010 Prius. None the currently selling Prius family have belts now. It eventually started migrating over to other Toyota hybrids in their redesigns. IIRC, the '12+ HyCam has no belts either and should be the case for the Lexus ES hybrid.

 

I do not waste time argumenting with people. I just give them a ride.

 

A proper demo and explanation of a Prius can help a lot. Unfortunately, there are lots of folks who live nowhere near me so I can't do that.

 

I can get down to the bare battery in 30 minutes (45 minutes the first time I did it), so I'm sure I could replace the battery pack in less than 2 hours. Full pics in my signature link from the first time I did it. However, that means a dealership will quote you 6 hours to do it just like they inflate all of the rest of their repair estimates. It all comes down to the hourly charge shown in the "the book". Doesn't matter what the actual time is.

 

The "book" includes taking the Battery ECU out of the old battery and installing it in the new battery (The new one from Toyota doesn't include an ECU). When I discussed the job of putting a ReInVolt replacement battery (which includes a tested ECU) into my 2004 Prius at 195k miles, my dealer reduced their labor estimate from $500 to $400 to account for the simplification (Yes, my Toyota dealer did the installation for me).

When a dealer estimates the cost at $4000 to $4500 they are including the cost of a usually unneeded new battery ECU.

JeffD

 

Used 2007 Prius resale price: $12,430 - $18,140 (according to automobilemag.com)
Used 2007 Civic sedan resale price: $8,890 - $13,190 (according to automobilemag.com)

Difference: $3,450 - $4,950. Anything else you wanted correction on?

Interestingly, I paid around mid $12k for my 2007, two years ago. So it's resale has remained constant over that time. Actually it almost immediately went UP in resale value (about $4,000) due to the tsunami, but that was clearly an anomaly.

Isn't it amazing how other people opinions, are kool-aid driven, and our own are fact based?

 

Okay, it still would only take me 2 hours to swap it out. Once you get down to the bare battery there are only a few bolts to open it and/or remove it. My post was to confirm what 2k1toaster said - that it is a 2-hour job.

 

1. Some of the similar components on the Prius get used a lot less than those on the Civic and don't require replacement nearly as often. Brakes, for instance.

2. In calculating your ROI you don't include the time necessary to refuel the car. If the Civic requires 50% more time at gas stations than the Prius the cost of the time spent at gas stations should be calculated into ROI.

3. 250,000 miles is a ridiculously long time to measure for average car ownership. The last study I saw showed new car ownership of about six years and roughly 13,500 miles traveled per year or around 80,000 miles total.

 

Ack, changed my mind. Deleted.