UAH grant to study battery electrodes

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by bwilson4web, Jan 24, 2019.

Page 2 of 2
  1. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    9,457
    3,656
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    I took the trouble to look at others on this EPA Board, and 2 or 3 actually understand what's what. Christy won't tip the boat (by himself). His appointment is a sop to coalers and a much more important Q is whether SAB will actually do anything. During current cycle.

    To be fair, I cannot point to important actions by SAB in earlier cycles. Perhaps they just sit there and glisten.
     
    #21 tochatihu, Feb 4, 2019
  2. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    28,166
    15,939
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    Nice summary for 2018: State of the climate: How the world warmed in 2018 | Carbon Brief

    It has interactive graphs ... do they make it through the great wall?

    Bob Wilson
     
    #22 bwilson4web, Feb 4, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2019
  3. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    28,166
    15,939
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    The chart of interest:
    [​IMG]

    Bob Wilson
     
    #23 bwilson4web, Feb 4, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2019
  4. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    28,166
    15,939
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    The battle is joined: EPA Chief Wheeler Says EV Standards Are “Social Engineering”

    Gosh, I hope I don't have to endorse fool cells.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #24 bwilson4web, Feb 5, 2019
  5. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    9,457
    3,656
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    If only Wheeler came to his high position without a financial history...

    But how much can he bend the EV adoption curve? Global vehicle market expansion is elsewhere, dudes. US can continue being 'last century' here. As long as high-markup big-gasser manufacturers pay who needs to be payed.

    World at large answers to somewhat different forces.
     
    #25 tochatihu, Feb 5, 2019
  6. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    9,457
    3,656
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    In old days, both Bob and I bought funny little hybrid cars. We could pass gas about being Early Adopters, but actually it was Toyota dudes who had the next decade or two in view.

    And so we love them in this group and so this group exists.

    But guess what? Toyota did not become Big Leader in full-electric vehicles. Hangin' back just a little bit. Hangin' on to profits to be made in this transition, including from big boxes.

    Toyota led, truly led, for one or 1.5 modern vehicle transitions. As such I won't complain about them not leading after.
     
    #26 tochatihu, Feb 5, 2019
  7. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    9,457
    3,656
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    We may have enough power density in batteries. Range 300 km, more or less, may conquer the world. Yet cost density is still high.

    If some dudes can reduce battery cost by half, they will conquer the world. Seriously. Global new vehicle market is people who want to pay much less than you did.

    :)
     
    #27 tochatihu, Feb 5, 2019
  8. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    28,166
    15,939
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    Then you'll love this: New Battery Cell Patented By Tesla: Faster Charging, Lower Cost

    The new battery cell comes with improved chemistry which might result in faster charging and discharging, better longevity, and even lower cost

    Coming from the Tesla battery research group, this patent promises an incremental step in improving the current Li-Ion batteries that are used in most electric vehicles. The research group – led by Jeff Dahn and located in Halifax – pushes the boundaries for current EV battery technology. Jeff has pretty much been working on Li-ion batteries ever since their introduction, making him the perfect lead in this research. Furthermore, he is credited in pushing the life cycle of the battery cells, an item that ensured the commercialization of these battery cells. The current cornerstone of Jeff’s work revolves around a potential increase in energy density and durability. An item that is highly coveted in both the EV and electronics industries.
    . . .
    A full summary of Tesla’s new battery patent awaits you below. Furthermore, you’ll find images from the patent application and the full specification sheet. It’s a long read, but if you’re into battery tech, you’ll love this. And quite frankly, we can’t think of a better way to spend the morning, than by taking your daily dose of internet-powered commute with some batter geek talk. On the other hand, we’re well aware that everyone expected a solid state battery patent or something alongside those lines, but this can’t be labeled as disappointing in any way, as the technology outlined in this patent could allow for much better utilization in both energy storage applications and commercial vehicles use.
    . . . <technical content sample>
    Two-operative, additive electrolyte systems disclosed include 1) vinylene carbonate (VC) combined with 1,3,2-dioxathiolane-2,2-dioxide (DTD, also known as ethylene sulfate) or another sulfur-containing additive (such as methylene methane disulfonate, trimethylene sulfate, 3-hydroxypropanesulfonic acid γ-sultone, glycol sulfite, or another sulfur-containing additive), 2) fluoro ethylene carbonate (FEC) combined with DTD or another sulfur-containing additive, and 3) prop-1-ene-1,3-sultone (PES) combined with DTD or another sulfur-containing additive. Further, because VC and FEC provide similar improvements (and are believed to function similarly), a mixture of VC and FEC may be considered as only a single operative electrolyte. That is, another disclosed two-operative, additive electrolyte system includes a mixture of VC and FEC combined with DTD or another sulfur-containing additive. When used as part of a greater battery system (which includes the electrolyte, electrolyte solvent, positive electrode, and negative electrode), these two-operative, additive electrolyte systems produce desirable properties for energy storage applications, including in vehicle and grid applications.​

    D*mn, I'm glad I picked up that extra Tesla stock last week.

    Patent document:

    Bob Wilson
     
    #28 bwilson4web, Feb 5, 2019
  9. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    28,166
    15,939
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    A bit long, a deep dive into Tesla battery technology:


    Bob Wilson
     
    #29 bwilson4web, Feb 5, 2019
  10. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    28,166
    15,939
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    Light in technical details, more of a high-level review:


    The 'dry battery' paper:
    http://www.powersourcesconference.com/Power Sources 2018 Digest/docs/3-1.pdf

    The separator has to pass ions but not electrons. The only thing that springs to my mind are carbon nanotubes. Apparently they can behave as a semiconductor (source: Carbon nanotube - Wikipedia.) So oriented as a porous field in a polymer carrier, ions could flow through the nanotubes and no electrolyte is needed. A very nice solution.

    Bob Wilson

    ps. Perhaps this Tesla-Maxwell technology thread should be relocated into the Tesla forum? I'm 50/50 on this but the term "proprietary" suggests Tesla-Maxwell are going where others won't be able to follow.
     
    #30 bwilson4web, Feb 6, 2019
  11. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    9,457
    3,656
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    "The separator has to pass ions but not electrons"

    For me this would be magical, but I've no knowledge about nanocarbon in this regard.

    Electrons (rightly viewed as within some wrapping of solvent molecules) are notably smaller than ions (rightly viewed as within some wrapping of solvent molecules). Both appear from the outside as wraps - smaller or larger..

    ==

    Took my thinking towards ion-transporting proteins in biological membranes. Mentioned most recently around here as targets for many of the most effective biological toxins. Those proteins are very selective for specific cation transport and obviously solve problem of electron counterflow.

    Best example I can think of concerning power density in such systems are electric eels. One with about 1.3 m^2 of body surface area can produce a 1 kilowatt shock. With certainly a low duty cycle, that I don't know.

    Electrical cells in human body (muscles mostly) max out at ~250 watts and perhaps more appropriate (in all cases) to think of surface area at the cellular level. Which I don't know either.

    It's likely that electrophysiologists have considered such membrane structures as components of secondary batteries. Maybe not though. Put them in a room together with battery experts, snacks and a case of beers, and see if anything develops.
     
    #31 tochatihu, Feb 6, 2019
    Trollbait and bwilson4web like this.
  12. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    28,166
    15,939
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    Bio-batteries ... YEAH!

    Bob Wilson

    ps. I'm pretty sure you meant 'kilovolts" as a "kilowatt" would be ... something else. <grins>
     
    #32 bwilson4web, Feb 6, 2019
  13. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    9,457
    3,656
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    Honestly I have lots of ideas. Most of them turn out to be garbage. Most of the good ones have already been invented (I find out later). Cannot turn off this flow or predict the next one.

    Many relate to things like right here. Somebody says something I never thought about. My thoughts in response, maybe they never thought about. Then, more things possibly happen.

    ==
    One thing for sure with batteries involving biological membranes is that they would have a very narrow temperature range.

    ==
    Was there a Mr. Wizard episode with electric eels or am I merely imagining that?
     
    #33 tochatihu, Feb 6, 2019
  14. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    28,166
    15,939
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    There are several YouTube summaries.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #34 bwilson4web, Feb 6, 2019
  15. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    9,457
    3,656
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    This article in Scientific Reports may be of interest:

    Nanotube-structured Na2V3O7 as a Cathode Material for Sodium-Ion Batteries with High-rate and Stable Cycle Performances

    By no means am I keeping up with this literature. But notice their reference list. Also, while sodium battery is given credit for being based on (anything-but-scarce) sodium, it requires half again as many atoms of vanadium.
     
    #35 tochatihu, Feb 7, 2019
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)
Page 2 of 2